How Lexus is losing the luxury war

[s***@yahoo.co.uk]

Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but according to a list of gripes in a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're also on the verge of becoming the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read More: http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-losing-the-luxury-war

-----------------------------------
Lexus NewsHub: Latest auto news sourced from websites, portals and blogs
http://www.carshops247.co.uk/news/Lexus.html

[Robin Bignall]

Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but according to a list of gripes in a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're also on the verge of becoming the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read More: http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-losing-the-luxury-war

Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

[Smarty]

Post by Robin Bignall

Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but according to a list of gripes in a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're also on the verge of becoming the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read More: http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-losing-the-luxury-war

Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

I sold my most recent ES-350 and bought a new Acura RL. My local Lexus
dealer is arrogant, offers poor trade-in value, does not discount new
cars, and acts as if they have a monopoly on quality vehicles.

I am very happy I made the switch after 12 years of being a Lexus owner.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
I sold my most recent ES-350 and bought a new Acura RL. My local Lexus
dealer is arrogant, offers poor trade-in value, does not discount new
cars, and acts as if they have a monopoly on quality vehicles.
I am very happy I made the switch after 12 years of being a Lexus owner.

As I tell everyone who asks "what kind of car should I get?": the
answer depends on your support mechanism. Friends, family, available
service dealerships and independents--it's all important.

For years I bought nothing but Hondas. I had no reason to change; both
the products themselves and the servicing organization were superb.

Honda fucked up big time institutionally and that ended up touching me
to the tune of $4500; I hope they have good luck without my business.
But that has nothing to do with the servicing organization, the
dealership; they were superb throughout, and remain so. Unfortunately
for me, the obvious alternatives--Toyota, Mazda, Subaru--have dealership
service organizations that are iffy at best around here. Dunno what I'm
going to do.

But to all the people who ask, "Should I buy a Camry or an Accord?" or
"Lexus or Buick?" I simply say, either one will do exactly the job you
want it to; you have to decide how you're going to service the car.
Yourself, dealership, independent, whatever. Buy the one that has the
best support infrastructure in your area.

Ob. auto sig: fuck American Honda Motor Manufacturing.

[David Z]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
I sold my most recent ES-350 and bought a new Acura RL. My local Lexus
dealer is arrogant, offers poor trade-in value, does not discount new
cars, and acts as if they have a monopoly on quality vehicles.
I am very happy I made the switch after 12 years of being a Lexus owner.

As I tell everyone who asks "what kind of car should I get?": the
answer depends on your support mechanism. Friends, family, available
service dealerships and independents--it's all important.
For years I bought nothing but Hondas. I had no reason to change; both
the products themselves and the servicing organization were superb.
Honda fucked up big time institutionally and that ended up touching me
to the tune of $4500...

Please elaborate.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by David Z

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Honda fucked up big time institutionally and that ended up touching me
to the tune of $4500...

Please elaborate.

sigh. Transmission woes at 73K miles/9 years, plus crashing economy,
plus Honda pulling back on their goodwill policies abruptly and
completely as a result of the crashing economy...

Honda knew damn well they made faulty transmissions. Back in the day,
they quietly and competently took care of the problem. Then the economy
crashed, and they decided they'd rather take the bad press than pay out
the cash to fix things.

It's not unlike Ford's decision with respect to Pinto gas tanks: they
made a money decision based on cold calculations.

Those 73K miles over 9 years? 10K miles of that are about ten trips to
see family, the other 63K miles was my wife driving the kids around
town. We're not talking a fart-can-equipped Civic Si here.

Anyway, American Honda started in the late 90s behaving just like crappy
GM and Ford and Chrysler, letting the beancounters have full control
while putting engineers at the bottom, and over the next ten years they
started reaping what they sowed.

A friend of mine works in Honda engineering; he goes way back with them,
and he weeps today for what Honda has become.

The good news, if you want to call it that, is that you can buy an Acura
and still get the goodness Honda used to hand out with even the lowliest
Civic. The bad news, then, is that you have to buy an Acura to get a
quality Honda--if you buy something with a Honda badge on it, you might
as well save some money and buy a GM.

[J Golden]

I agree completely. I had an RX for many years. Pleasant vehicle, but
I had horrible service experiences with my local Lexus dealers. Ended
up driving 30 miles to a dealer that was excellent, but charged
exhorbitant amounts for ordinary maintenance. Then I learned that a
local Toyota dealer near where I worked did work on the RX. I started
going there for maintenance and repair and ended up paying 1/2 the
cost Lexus charged. It was also more convenient. No loaner, but the
bus to work stopped right outside the dealer, or, on a nice day, I
could hike to work. Then, in 2009, the dealer closed shop ovenight,
and I ended up going back to the Lexus dealer 30 miles away. Then
suddently, routine maintenance was taking 3-5 days instead of one day.
I realized what they were doing. They were giving me an extended test
drive in the loader hoping that I might consider purchasing a new one.
Trouble is, I didn't like any of the latest loaners. I just got rid
of the RX and picked up a 2007 Certified Highlander Limited. Now I
just have to find a local Toyota dealer that is as good at repairs as
the one that closed shop.

To me, a reliable vehicle AND a convenient and a reliable fairly
priced repair facility are the two most important things.

On Sun, 01 May 2011 18:58:26 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
I sold my most recent ES-350 and bought a new Acura RL. My local Lexus
dealer is arrogant, offers poor trade-in value, does not discount new
cars, and acts as if they have a monopoly on quality vehicles.
I am very happy I made the switch after 12 years of being a Lexus owner.

As I tell everyone who asks "what kind of car should I get?": the
answer depends on your support mechanism. Friends, family, available
service dealerships and independents--it's all important.
For years I bought nothing but Hondas. I had no reason to change; both
the products themselves and the servicing organization were superb.
Honda fucked up big time institutionally and that ended up touching me
to the tune of $4500; I hope they have good luck without my business.
But that has nothing to do with the servicing organization, the
dealership; they were superb throughout, and remain so. Unfortunately
for me, the obvious alternatives--Toyota, Mazda, Subaru--have dealership
service organizations that are iffy at best around here. Dunno what I'm
going to do.
But to all the people who ask, "Should I buy a Camry or an Accord?" or
"Lexus or Buick?" I simply say, either one will do exactly the job you
want it to; you have to decide how you're going to service the car.
Yourself, dealership, independent, whatever. Buy the one that has the
best support infrastructure in your area.
Ob. auto sig: fuck American Honda Motor Manufacturing.

[Robin Bignall]

Post by Smarty

Post by Robin Bignall

Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but according to a list of gripes in a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're also on the verge of becoming the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read More: http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-losing-the-luxury-war

Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

I sold my most recent ES-350 and bought a new Acura RL. My local Lexus
dealer is arrogant, offers poor trade-in value, does not discount new
cars, and acts as if they have a monopoly on quality vehicles.
I am very happy I made the switch after 12 years of being a Lexus owner.

I managed to get to the article by using Google Chrome. I guess you and
Elmo are in the States.
I was a Mercedes owner for 24 years before switching to Lexus. I've
mainly had a convertible of some sort -- a Mercedes 280SL that I bought
new in 1985 supplemented by a Mercedes 2.3 kompressor coupe when the SL
became elderly. I've been retired for a long time so in 24 years the SL
had only done 84,000 genuine miles but I had to replace most of its bits
several times and rebuild the engine at 60,000. Not particularly
impressive as I'm not hard on cars.

I bought a Lexus demo SC430 in 2007 with 5,400 on the clock and a new
car warranty, saving £14,000 on OTR price ($25,000?); 15,000 on the
clock so far and it's my ideal car. The local Lexus dealer is like
walking into a sort of palace, but the Mercedes dealer is even more
snooty and offhand. So far, services are fine, they deliver and collect
and give me a loaner. It costs, but then so does Mercedes. So far, so
good.

[gallen]

The Link works just fine, using Explorer 8. But more to the point.

It appears Lexus turns its deaf ear to customer suggestions relative
to improvements. I sent the a list of about ten (10) items that could
obviously be improved upon & never heard a word back from them; it's
been almost a year since I wrote. They just don't care - next car
won't be another LS460-L AWD but rather something that's current and
up-to-date technically.

Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but according to a list of gripes in
a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're also on the verge of becoming
the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read More:http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-...

Post by Robin Bignall
Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

[Smarty]

Post by gallen
The Link works just fine, using Explorer 8. But more to the point.
It appears Lexus turns its deaf ear to customer suggestions relative
to improvements. I sent the a list of about ten (10) items that could
obviously be improved upon& never heard a word back from them; it's
been almost a year since I wrote. They just don't care - next car
won't be another LS460-L AWD but rather something that's current and
up-to-date technically.

Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but according to a list of gripes in
a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're also on the verge of becoming
the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read More:http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-...

Post by Robin Bignall
Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

Very ironically, I was among the very first Acura buyers in 1986 when
the Acura brand arrived, purchasing an Acura Legend in 1986 from one of
the very first dealers in the U.S. I had sufficient grief with the car
that I swore never to buy another Acura / Honda.

25 years later, in March of 2011, I was willing to let bygones be
bygones. I had reached the boiling point with Lexus but wanted a
Japanese-made 4 door sedan to replace an ES-350. Visiting the local
Lexus dealer reminded me just how smug, non customer-focused, and
arrogant they had become. Rather than do a trade for an ES or Ls, both
of which were possibilities, I happily told the salesman and then the
sales manager that they had loat my support as a returning customer.
Until they fixed their shop, improved their trade-in values, and showed
a bit of respect for their potential repeat customers, I was not going
to buy another Lexus.

I am absolutely thrilled with my new Acura RL, and my wife and I both
strongly prefer it to our prior Lexus sedans. We even prefer it in some
respects to the LS we briefly drove,

It will take a LOT to get me back to buying another Lexus.

I realize that Honda certainly can and does screw up, and if they do, I
will be as unloyal to them as they are to me when it comes to future car
purchases.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
I am absolutely thrilled with my new Acura RL, and my wife and I both
strongly prefer it to our prior Lexus sedans. We even prefer it in some
respects to the LS we briefly drove,
It will take a LOT to get me back to buying another Lexus.

Oh, don't worry. It'll happen a LOT faster than you think.

[Smarty]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
I am absolutely thrilled with my new Acura RL, and my wife and I both
strongly prefer it to our prior Lexus sedans. We even prefer it in some
respects to the LS we briefly drove,
It will take a LOT to get me back to buying another Lexus.

Oh, don't worry. It'll happen a LOT faster than you think.

You may be correct, and time will tell. Local dealer attitudes and
performance have a lot to do with this, and my son's Lexus dealer in
Southern California is totally different from mine here in the
Northeast. In his area there are 3 competing Lexus dealers in Orange
County who very skillfully compete on service quality, price, and dealer
responsiveness. In my area, there isn't another Lexus dealer for over
100 miles, and boy oh boy do they remind you of this........

Having not owned an Acura or other Honda since 1986, I can only rely on
surveys such as Consumer Reports to determine how a large number of
owners feels about their ownership and reliability. In this regard, the
Acura and Lexus are roughly equivalent, or so it appears.

[Wayne]

Post by gallen
The Link works just fine, using Explorer 8. But more to the point.
It appears Lexus turns its deaf ear to customer suggestions relative
to improvements. I sent the a list of about ten (10) items that could
obviously be improved upon& never heard a word back from them; it's
been almost a year since I wrote. They just don't care - next car
won't be another LS460-L AWD but rather something that's current and
up-to-date technically.

On 5/1/2011 6:43 AM, Robin Bignall wrote:> On Sun, 01 May 2011
Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but
according to a list of gripes in
a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're
also on the verge of becoming
the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read
More:http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-...

Post by Robin Bignall
Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

Very ironically, I was among the very first Acura buyers in 1986 when the
Acura brand arrived, purchasing an Acura Legend in 1986 from one of the
very first dealers in the U.S. I had sufficient grief with the car that I
swore never to buy another Acura / Honda.
25 years later, in March of 2011, I was willing to let bygones be bygones.
I had reached the boiling point with Lexus but wanted a Japanese-made 4
door sedan to replace an ES-350. Visiting the local Lexus dealer reminded
me just how smug, non customer-focused, and arrogant they had become.
Rather than do a trade for an ES or Ls, both of which were possibilities,
I happily told the salesman and then the sales manager that they had loat
my support as a returning customer. Until they fixed their shop, improved
their trade-in values, and showed a bit of respect for their potential
repeat customers, I was not going to buy another Lexus.
I am absolutely thrilled with my new Acura RL, and my wife and I both
strongly prefer it to our prior Lexus sedans. We even prefer it in some
respects to the LS we briefly drove,
It will take a LOT to get me back to buying another Lexus.
I realize that Honda certainly can and does screw up, and if they do, I
will be as unloyal to them as they are to me when it comes to future car
purchases.

-
Well, there is always GM if the Acura dealer ticks you off.......

[Smarty]

Post by Wayne

Post by gallen
The Link works just fine, using Explorer 8. But more to the point.
It appears Lexus turns its deaf ear to customer suggestions relative
to improvements. I sent the a list of about ten (10) items that could
obviously be improved upon& never heard a word back from them; it's
been almost a year since I wrote. They just don't care - next car
won't be another LS460-L AWD but rather something that's current and
up-to-date technically.

On 5/1/2011 6:43 AM, Robin Bignall wrote:> On Sun, 01 May 2011
Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but
according to a list of gripes in
a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're
also on the verge of becoming
the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read
More:http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-...

Post by Robin Bignall
Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

Very ironically, I was among the very first Acura buyers in 1986 when the
Acura brand arrived, purchasing an Acura Legend in 1986 from one of the
very first dealers in the U.S. I had sufficient grief with the car that I
swore never to buy another Acura / Honda.
25 years later, in March of 2011, I was willing to let bygones be bygones.
I had reached the boiling point with Lexus but wanted a Japanese-made 4
door sedan to replace an ES-350. Visiting the local Lexus dealer reminded
me just how smug, non customer-focused, and arrogant they had become.
Rather than do a trade for an ES or Ls, both of which were possibilities,
I happily told the salesman and then the sales manager that they had loat
my support as a returning customer. Until they fixed their shop, improved
their trade-in values, and showed a bit of respect for their potential
repeat customers, I was not going to buy another Lexus.
I am absolutely thrilled with my new Acura RL, and my wife and I both
strongly prefer it to our prior Lexus sedans. We even prefer it in some
respects to the LS we briefly drove,
It will take a LOT to get me back to buying another Lexus.
I realize that Honda certainly can and does screw up, and if they do, I
will be as unloyal to them as they are to me when it comes to future car
purchases.

-
Well, there is always GM if the Acura dealer ticks you off.......

Well, I also own a Corvette C6 convertible, and have done so for the
last 12 years with the 1998 and 2006 models. They have been extremely
reliable, and the dealer attitude is actually MUCH better than the local
Lexus dealer. I would definitely buy another Corvette based on my 2
ownership experiences, but would be extremely reluctant to buy another
Lexus, given the Lexus dealer here.

If i brought a service complaint to the Lexus dealer, they would, on
several occasions, insist on telling me why I was wrong and that the
Lexus was not at fault. The Chevy / Corvette dealer was far more
interested in solving the very rare problems I brought to their attention.

I was among the very first to switch to Japanese luxury cars in 1986
when Acura came to the U.S. with their first model, having been
disgusted with GM and Ford, and their screwed up Lincolns, Cadillacs,
and other luxury models, many of them filled with manufacturing problems
and sloppy dealerships. I am now happy to say that Chevy does a very
impressive job in all respects, at least with the Corvette I am familiar
with, and Lexus is living off of its diminishing reputation as far as I
am concerned.

[Wayne]

Post by Wayne

Post by gallen
The Link works just fine, using Explorer 8. But more to the point.
It appears Lexus turns its deaf ear to customer suggestions relative
to improvements. I sent the a list of about ten (10) items that could
obviously be improved upon& never heard a word back from them; it's
been almost a year since I wrote. They just don't care - next car
won't be another LS460-L AWD but rather something that's current and
up-to-date technically.

On 5/1/2011 6:43 AM, Robin Bignall wrote:> On Sun, 01 May 2011
Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but
according to a list of gripes in
a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're
also on the verge of becoming
the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read
More:http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-...

Post by Robin Bignall
Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

Very ironically, I was among the very first Acura buyers in 1986 when the
Acura brand arrived, purchasing an Acura Legend in 1986 from one of the
very first dealers in the U.S. I had sufficient grief with the car that I
swore never to buy another Acura / Honda.
25 years later, in March of 2011, I was willing to let bygones be bygones.
I had reached the boiling point with Lexus but wanted a Japanese-made 4
door sedan to replace an ES-350. Visiting the local Lexus dealer reminded
me just how smug, non customer-focused, and arrogant they had become.
Rather than do a trade for an ES or Ls, both of which were
possibilities,
I happily told the salesman and then the sales manager that they had loat
my support as a returning customer. Until they fixed their shop, improved
their trade-in values, and showed a bit of respect for their potential
repeat customers, I was not going to buy another Lexus.
I am absolutely thrilled with my new Acura RL, and my wife and I both
strongly prefer it to our prior Lexus sedans. We even prefer it in some
respects to the LS we briefly drove,
It will take a LOT to get me back to buying another Lexus.
I realize that Honda certainly can and does screw up, and if they do, I
will be as unloyal to them as they are to me when it comes to future car
purchases.

-
Well, there is always GM if the Acura dealer ticks you off.......

Well, I also own a Corvette C6 convertible, and have done so for the last
12 years with the 1998 and 2006 models. They have been extremely reliable,
and the dealer attitude is actually MUCH better than the local Lexus
dealer. I would definitely buy another Corvette based on my 2 ownership
experiences, but would be extremely reluctant to buy another Lexus, given
the Lexus dealer here.
If i brought a service complaint to the Lexus dealer, they would, on
several occasions, insist on telling me why I was wrong and that the Lexus
was not at fault. The Chevy / Corvette dealer was far more interested in
solving the very rare problems I brought to their attention.
I was among the very first to switch to Japanese luxury cars in 1986 when
Acura came to the U.S. with their first model, having been disgusted with
GM and Ford, and their screwed up Lincolns, Cadillacs, and other luxury
models, many of them filled with manufacturing problems and sloppy
dealerships. I am now happy to say that Chevy does a very impressive job
in all respects, at least with the Corvette I am familiar with, and Lexus
is living off of its diminishing reputation as far as I am concerned.

-
Well, I suppose it is a function of which Lexus (or GM) dealer you are
using. Our local Lexus dealers are fine, and one of them is world class
super.....beautiful facilities, quick and thorough service, and excellent
followup.

My worst two cars ever were a Corvette and a Suburban. Both were like lean
and hungry animals trying to eat me out of house and home. It doesn't
matter how the GM service is, if the products are crappy and unreliable.
The Corvette was incredible...paint peeled off the hood, alternators went
out, mufflers went out, the throttle linkage stuck full on, the radio had a
problem from day one, etc. etc. The Suburban was used to pull a trailer,
and there was usually about $500 worth of maintenance between trips. I will
NEVER EVER own a GM product again.

Lexus on the other hand....I am on my third now....my first Lexus was a
RX-300. It went 11 years and about 100,000 miles before there was a
mechanical problem of ANY KIND. Such reliability makes up for any minor
irritations I might have had with the dealer.....and I had no bad
experiences.

Anyway, I hope you like the Acura. I didn't look at them, because the
service available is spotty in my typical areas of travel.

[Smarty]

Post by Wayne

Post by Wayne

Post by gallen
The Link works just fine, using Explorer 8. But more to the point.
It appears Lexus turns its deaf ear to customer suggestions relative
to improvements. I sent the a list of about ten (10) items that could
obviously be improved upon& never heard a word back from them; it's
been almost a year since I wrote. They just don't care - next car
won't be another LS460-L AWD but rather something that's current and
up-to-date technically.

On 5/1/2011 6:43 AM, Robin Bignall wrote:> On Sun, 01 May 2011
Being the top-selling U.S. luxury brand for 11 years was nice, but
according to a list of gripes in
a leaked internal document obtained exclusively by Jalopnik, they're
also on the verge of becoming
the new Buick. UPDATED More »
Read
More:http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/jalopnik/full/~3/Cd85-T0LWfQ/how-lexus-is-...

Post by Robin Bignall
Just as a matter of interest that link won't work in IE8.

Very ironically, I was among the very first Acura buyers in 1986 when the
Acura brand arrived, purchasing an Acura Legend in 1986 from one of the
very first dealers in the U.S. I had sufficient grief with the car that I
swore never to buy another Acura / Honda.
25 years later, in March of 2011, I was willing to let bygones be bygones.
I had reached the boiling point with Lexus but wanted a Japanese-made 4
door sedan to replace an ES-350. Visiting the local Lexus dealer reminded
me just how smug, non customer-focused, and arrogant they had become.
Rather than do a trade for an ES or Ls, both of which were
possibilities,
I happily told the salesman and then the sales manager that they had loat
my support as a returning customer. Until they fixed their shop, improved
their trade-in values, and showed a bit of respect for their potential
repeat customers, I was not going to buy another Lexus.
I am absolutely thrilled with my new Acura RL, and my wife and I both
strongly prefer it to our prior Lexus sedans. We even prefer it in some
respects to the LS we briefly drove,
It will take a LOT to get me back to buying another Lexus.
I realize that Honda certainly can and does screw up, and if they do, I
will be as unloyal to them as they are to me when it comes to future car
purchases.

-
Well, there is always GM if the Acura dealer ticks you off.......

Well, I also own a Corvette C6 convertible, and have done so for the last
12 years with the 1998 and 2006 models. They have been extremely reliable,
and the dealer attitude is actually MUCH better than the local Lexus
dealer. I would definitely buy another Corvette based on my 2 ownership
experiences, but would be extremely reluctant to buy another Lexus, given
the Lexus dealer here.
If i brought a service complaint to the Lexus dealer, they would, on
several occasions, insist on telling me why I was wrong and that the Lexus
was not at fault. The Chevy / Corvette dealer was far more interested in
solving the very rare problems I brought to their attention.
I was among the very first to switch to Japanese luxury cars in 1986 when
Acura came to the U.S. with their first model, having been disgusted with
GM and Ford, and their screwed up Lincolns, Cadillacs, and other luxury
models, many of them filled with manufacturing problems and sloppy
dealerships. I am now happy to say that Chevy does a very impressive job
in all respects, at least with the Corvette I am familiar with, and Lexus
is living off of its diminishing reputation as far as I am concerned.

-
Well, I suppose it is a function of which Lexus (or GM) dealer you are
using. Our local Lexus dealers are fine, and one of them is world class
super.....beautiful facilities, quick and thorough service, and excellent
followup.
My worst two cars ever were a Corvette and a Suburban. Both were like lean
and hungry animals trying to eat me out of house and home. It doesn't
matter how the GM service is, if the products are crappy and unreliable.
The Corvette was incredible...paint peeled off the hood, alternators went
out, mufflers went out, the throttle linkage stuck full on, the radio had a
problem from day one, etc. etc. The Suburban was used to pull a trailer,
and there was usually about $500 worth of maintenance between trips. I will
NEVER EVER own a GM product again.
Lexus on the other hand....I am on my third now....my first Lexus was a
RX-300. It went 11 years and about 100,000 miles before there was a
mechanical problem of ANY KIND. Such reliability makes up for any minor
irritations I might have had with the dealer.....and I had no bad
experiences.
Anyway, I hope you like the Acura. I didn't look at them, because the
service available is spotty in my typical areas of travel.

I absolutely agree. The dealer makes a huge difference. My Lexus dealer
previously had a wall-mounted "Customer Satisfaction" graph posted in
the Customer Waiting Room showing the excellent satisfaction reports
received from customers, updated on a monthly basis. They also had
service awards which Lexus had awarded them for providing outstanding
service. Starting around 2009 they no longer had any new awards, and
then they took the monthly updated graph and removed it from the wall.
It has been a down-hill decline month after month with many people
turned over in the service department. The hand-writing was literally
"on the wall" that they were on the way down.

[gallen]

I own a Corvette as well. A '98 C5 Convertible. It's never been back
to the dealer any problems, only oil changes every 2K miles. It's
been a great automobile and the dealer treatment is fantastic. In the
Vette department GM and their dealer is doing a great job. I really
can't complain about our Lexus dealer. We've had problems a plenty
but the dealer is always willing to absolutely go out of their way to
see that we're completely satisfied. Lexus, the Corporation, is the
problem.

Post by Smarty
Well, I also own a Corvette C6 convertible, and have done so for the
last 12 years with the 1998 and 2006 models. They have been extremely
reliable, and the dealer attitude is actually MUCH better than the local
Lexus dealer. I would definitely buy another Corvette based on my 2
ownership experiences, but would be extremely reluctant to buy another
Lexus, given the Lexus dealer here.

[Smarty]

Post by gallen
I own a Corvette as well. A '98 C5 Convertible. It's never been back
to the dealer any problems, only oil changes every 2K miles. It's
been a great automobile and the dealer treatment is fantastic. In the
Vette department GM and their dealer is doing a great job. I really
can't complain about our Lexus dealer. We've had problems a plenty
but the dealer is always willing to absolutely go out of their way to
see that we're completely satisfied. Lexus, the Corporation, is the
problem.

Chevy really does provide excellent service on the Corvette, and I
thankfully have needed very little service on my C6. Whatever service I
have requested or needed has been handled exceptionally well.

It really boils down to how well the dealer handles the various issues
which come up over the ownership period. I would still be a Lexus owner
if my dealer had made an attempt to solve 2 problems I reported, and
offered me a reasonable trade-in price when I attempted to purchase a
third Lexus. In both service cases they really did not appear to care
one way or the other if I walked away satisfied.

I also thought that their handling of the "sudden acceleration" / floor
mat issue was outrageously poor. This was certainly a corporate issue,
and shows a much more pervasive attitude of arrogance / hubris.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
I also thought that their handling of the "sudden acceleration" / floor
mat issue was outrageously poor. This was certainly a corporate issue,

No, it was an idiot issue.

In that, any idiot can own a car and get a license. He doesn't have to
know what he's doing, though.

I thought that the sensationalistic news organizations' handling of the
issue was outrageous, period.

Was anyone here around back in 1985, when 60 Minutes fucked Audi up the
ass sideways with a baton? All in the name of ratings?

This had nothing to do with the cars or the dealers or Toyota, and
everything to do with idiot drivers. Total idiot drivers.

[Smarty]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
I also thought that their handling of the "sudden acceleration" / floor
mat issue was outrageously poor. This was certainly a corporate issue,

No, it was an idiot issue.
In that, any idiot can own a car and get a license. He doesn't have to
know what he's doing, though.
I thought that the sensationalistic news organizations' handling of the
issue was outrageous, period.
Was anyone here around back in 1985, when 60 Minutes fucked Audi up the
ass sideways with a baton? All in the name of ratings?
This had nothing to do with the cars or the dealers or Toyota, and
everything to do with idiot drivers. Total idiot drivers.

I disagree entirely.

For whatever it is worth, I have a couple engineering degrees and spent
most of my career in computer hardware and software system design. 2
engineers I worked with confirmed very bizarre software bugs in Lexus
programming which caused the door locks / key fobs / and ignition
control to be FUBAR after certain "personalization" changes were made by
Lexus technicians. Specifically the car would lock all doors with the
keys inside, refuse to recognize the FOBs entirely, and not allow engine
start.

Steve Wozniak, a very respectable software authority, testified to
Congress about his own Prius and its sudden acceleration issue which he
can reproduce over and over again.

There is a very good reason why Toyota paid over 16 million dollars in
fines and had 100's of complaints and actual deaths attributable to
software issues.

I do not accept the premise that the owners are idiots, or that the dead
are at fault. The driver of the most publicized death car Lexus ES-350
accident was a very experienced police officer.

I think Lexus is just way way too full of itself, and that their hubris
is now much more apparent. And yes, the press did amplify the message.
But then again, Toyota had attenuated the message skillfully, leaving
the public with too little solid information.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
I do not accept the premise that the owners are idiots, or that the dead
are at fault. The driver of the most publicized death car Lexus ES-350
accident was a very experienced police officer.

Who had no idea he could put his car into neutral and let it coast.

Say what you will, but this is all about idiot drivers and not at all
about software or anything else.

[Smarty]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
I do not accept the premise that the owners are idiots, or that the dead
are at fault. The driver of the most publicized death car Lexus ES-350
accident was a very experienced police officer.

Who had no idea he could put his car into neutral and let it coast.
Say what you will, but this is all about idiot drivers and not at all
about software or anything else.

More than 100 deaths have been attributed to this problem, as confirmed
in the newspaper article cited below:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/26/business/la-fi-toyota-deaths26-2010mar26

I suppose you could say there are a hundred or more "idiots". In the
engineering world I live in, the designers are supposed to prevent panic
or emergency conditions in the first place. And if such a panic is
unavoidable, then a logical "band-aid" would be to modify the braking
design so that depression of the brake pedal relinquishes accelerator power.

Toyota eventually, after more than 5 years of denials and stalling, did
exactly that, and modified the firmware. A driver in panic now has a
fighting chance to bring the car under control.

You call it a driver / idiot problem. I call it shitty design combined
with arrogance and bad business ethics on behalf of Toyota.

I do not believe in blaming the victims. Rather, I believe in blaming
the perpetrators.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Say what you will, but this is all about idiot drivers and not at all
about software or anything else.

More than 100 deaths have been attributed to this problem, as confirmed
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/26/business/la-fi-toyota-deaths26-2010mar
26
I suppose you could say there are a hundred or more "idiots".

Do you remember when someone claimed to find a pin in his can of Coke?

Out of the woodwork, and within days, were multiple people suddenly
making the same claim.

In the soda case, they were faking it. In the car case, BEST case is
that the accident rate stayed level but "suddenly" the cause was defined
by the news reporters (who have a vested interest in writing articles
that sell papers) to be whatever the sheeple wanted to read about.

Yes, there are a hundred or more idiots. In fact, you deal with 100 or
more car-owning and -driving idiots every day as you drive around town.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
And if such a panic is
unavoidable, then a logical "band-aid" would be to modify the braking
design so that depression of the brake pedal relinquishes accelerator power.

There is zero--ZERO--ability of the engine to overcome the brakes.

But that's not convenient for you, so you go with the "it just ran
away!" story.

Why is that not convenient for you?

ZERO ability of the engine to overcome the brakes. There is NO WAY that
the cars "ran away" if the brakes were being applied. NO WAY.

There is no reason, then, to say "if the brakes are being applied,
relinquish the accelerator". The car would stop.

On the other hand, if the idiot driver was mashing the wrong pedal, or
was not mashing the brake pedal at all, then no amount of logic in the
car's software would know to tell the car to stop. The car would
simply...run away, just like all these incidents that people claimed.

No matter what, you have a situation where idiots are actively making
the car do the wrong thing. The car is NOT doing it on its own.

The car would slow and then stop, if the driver was bothering to press
on the brake--even if there was a car mat causing the gas pedal to
apply. If the car was NOT slowing and stopping, then the driver was not
applying the brake. If the car was not slowing and stopping but instead
was running away under power, then the driver either was mashing the gas
pedal and/or was NOT mashing the brake pedal.

This comes 100% down to idiot drivers who are not in control of their
vehicles.

And then there's the fucking COP who's too stupid to know to put a car
into neutral.

Hell, a RENTAL car, no less. Like he cared what happened to the engine
at that point. It could self destruct for all he cared. All he had to
do was disconnect the engine from the wheels, and ALL cars have had that
ability since day 1--well over 100 years ago.

If a COP is that stupid, I have no sympathy.

[Smarty]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
And if such a panic is
unavoidable, then a logical "band-aid" would be to modify the braking
design so that depression of the brake pedal relinquishes accelerator power.

There is zero--ZERO--ability of the engine to overcome the brakes.
But that's not convenient for you, so you go with the "it just ran
away!" story.
Why is that not convenient for you?
ZERO ability of the engine to overcome the brakes. There is NO WAY that
the cars "ran away" if the brakes were being applied. NO WAY.
There is no reason, then, to say "if the brakes are being applied,
relinquish the accelerator". The car would stop.
On the other hand, if the idiot driver was mashing the wrong pedal, or
was not mashing the brake pedal at all, then no amount of logic in the
car's software would know to tell the car to stop. The car would
simply...run away, just like all these incidents that people claimed.
No matter what, you have a situation where idiots are actively making
the car do the wrong thing. The car is NOT doing it on its own.
The car would slow and then stop, if the driver was bothering to press
on the brake--even if there was a car mat causing the gas pedal to
apply. If the car was NOT slowing and stopping, then the driver was not
applying the brake. If the car was not slowing and stopping but instead
was running away under power, then the driver either was mashing the gas
pedal and/or was NOT mashing the brake pedal.
This comes 100% down to idiot drivers who are not in control of their
vehicles.
And then there's the fucking COP who's too stupid to know to put a car
into neutral.
Hell, a RENTAL car, no less. Like he cared what happened to the engine
at that point. It could self destruct for all he cared. All he had to
do was disconnect the engine from the wheels, and ALL cars have had that
ability since day 1--well over 100 years ago.
If a COP is that stupid, I have no sympathy.

Well, I guess we must see the world in very different ways. I don't see
the vast number of deceptive people, idiots, and trouble makers that
you do. I think most people are NOT idiots but expect a car to be
designed properly with no surprise / sudden acceleration.

The braking design of Toyota was CLEARLY insufficient, and the
Washington Post article I cite below clearly shows that many other car
makers other than Toyota employ the very system which Toyota eventually
(and begrudgingly) implemented. The article states:

"Most other automakers have adopted this technology," said Sean Kane, a
former researcher at the Center for Auto Safety who now works at Safety
Research and Strategies. Not adding the systems "is one of the mistakes
that created this perfect storm for Toyota."

An elaboration by reputable journalists of how most car companies other
than Toyota have prevented this problem is found at:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/28/AR2010012803971.html


Since you are obviously an expert on both human foibles as well as
proper braking system design I will make no further attempt to persuade
you otherwise. I am still entirely convinced based on all of the proof
I have seen as well as personally experienced that the Toyota firmware
has bugs, some of which I have personally experienced and confirmed with
other engineers who, like me, have 30+ years of design experience.

People like Steve Wozniak who have come forward and testified to
Congress about their runaway Prius issue are NOT idiots, and, to the
contrary, are extremely capable software and computer system analysts
and designers. I put a lot of trust in his observations as well, and
quite frankly think that dismissing the entire matter as being caused by
"idiotic drivers" is itself idiotic.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
I think most people are NOT idiots but expect a car to be
designed properly with no surprise / sudden acceleration.

People are hitting the gas instead of the brake. That has NOTHING to do
with "sudden acceleration".

That they can do that, means they're responsible for knowing what
they're doing in the driver's seat and how to deal with it. They're
responsible for knowing how the gearshift works, how the ignition switch
works, etc.

That people don't bother even to open the owner's manual--"I don't need
that, I know how to drive, what are you talking about 'owner's
manual'?"--means they truly think piloting a 4000 pound hunk of metal at
60mph is inherently safe and requires no attention.

That's the main problem: stupid people that don't understand physics,
that think they're immortal, that the world owes them their life, that
they have zero responsibility.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
The braking design of Toyota was CLEARLY insufficient,

NO car made today can overpower the brakes. NO car.

The braking design wasn't "insufficient"; if the car wasn't slowing
down, THE DRIVER WASN'T BRAKING. That's a simple fact that cannot be
disputed.

And yet, people like you want to dispute that for some reason. I call
that "willful ignorance of the facts".

Again, putting in software that cuts the fuel when the brake pedal is
depressed WILL NOT solve this problem. People will continue to mash the
wrong pedal no matter what, and get themselves into trouble because they
don't know what they're doing in a 4000 pound car going 60mph. They
don't know how to shift the gear into neutral--hell, they may not even
know what the word "neutral" means.

It won't be terribly long before someone in a new car with software that
cuts the fuel when the brake pedal is applied ends up screaming to his
death into a bridge abutment, screaming into the phone to 911 about how
his car "won't slow down", and the witch hunts will begin all over again.

And as usual, the people who actually know things will be ignored. And
you may or may not remember this prediction and scratch your head,
wondering how it could happen.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
People like Steve Wozniak who have come forward and testified to
Congress about their runaway Prius issue are NOT idiots,

Woz isn't an idiot with respect to computer programming, but that
doesn't mean he's not an idiot with respect to actually driving a car.
The two are not related at all.

[Smarty]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
People like Steve Wozniak who have come forward and testified to
Congress about their runaway Prius issue are NOT idiots,

Woz isn't an idiot with respect to computer programming, but that
doesn't mean he's not an idiot with respect to actually driving a car.
The two are not related at all.

You apparently have not read Steve Wozniak's testimony, or perhaps have
read it but do not understand it.

Woz discovered, while using the Prius cruise control, that he can
repeatably and consistently cause his Prius to go into an uncontrolled
acceleration mode which is entirely unexpected and potentially lethal.

His driving skills are more than adequate to handle this emergency and
thus he did not panic as many people would.

Instead, he analytically isolated the sequence of driver steps which
consistently provoke the problem. In the spirit of a true computer
systems engineer, he analyzed and isolated the provocative conditions.

How Toyota dealt with his complaint was IDIOTIC. How the government
initially dealt with his complaint was IDIOTIC. Some people might say
(as I certainly would) CRIMINAL.

And some people on the Internet who are ill-informed might say, what an
idiot Steve Wozniak is. He doesn't know how to drive a car properly.

It does leave the question open, who the actual idiots are.....

[Smarty]

On 5/10/2011 8:49 AM, Smarty wrote:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Wozniak-My-Prius-Speeds-Up-On-Its-Own--87107692.html

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Wozniak-My-Prius-Speeds-Up-On-Its-Own--871
07692.html

Oh come ON now, that has NOTHING to do with sudden acceleration.

[Smarty]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Wozniak-My-Prius-Speeds-Up-On-Its-Own--871
07692.html

Oh come ON now, that has NOTHING to do with sudden acceleration.

Given the half dozen or more exchanges we have had, I can see that it is
entirely obvious that your mind was and still is made up that the
problem is entirely traceable to "idiot drivers" and publicity hounds,
including those who died.

You do not acknowledge nor even reply to the fact that many other car
makers including Mercedes, GM, and many others used a safer and better
design algorithm for many years before Toyota begrudgingly and
reluctantly retro-fitted it to their cars under a Federally mandated
recall, after paying over 16 million dollars in fines.

Wozniak's testimony is all over the Internet from CBS News, the
Washington Post, CNN and numerous other sources who are reputable and
(no doubt) partially sponsored by Toyota yet still report honestly. If
anything they would suppress such bad news rather than amplify it as you
claim.

I have personally experienced extremely repeatable software bugs in my
last Lexus as I mentioned earlier in this post. Lexus denied the problem
yet 2 other engineers of comparable experience to my own (35 + years
apiece) easily and clearly can demonstrate the issues.

You cannot see any connection between Wozniak's loss of accelerator
control and the sudden acceleration issue so many other people have
experienced and witnessed and reported? I can only conclude that you are
not interested in facts or reality, and I am entirely done entertaining
your nonsense and bullshit. You must either work for Toyota, be a total
troll, or lack even basic powers of reasoning and logic.

[Smarty]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Wozniak-My-Prius-Speeds-Up-On-Its-Own--871
07692.html

Oh come ON now, that has NOTHING to do with sudden acceleration.

Given the half dozen or more exchanges we have had, I can see that it is
entirely obvious that your mind was and still is made up that the
problem is entirely traceable to "idiot drivers" and publicity hounds,
including those who died.

You do not acknowledge nor even reply to the fact that many other car
makers including Mercedes, GM, and many others used a safer and better
design algorithm for many years before Toyota begrudgingly and
reluctantly retro-fitted it to their cars under a Federally mandated
recall, after paying over 16 million dollars in fines.

Wozniak's testimony is all over the Internet from CBS News, the
Washington Post, CNN and numerous other sources who are reputable and
(no doubt) partially sponsored by Toyota yet still report honestly. If
anything they would suppress such bad news rather than amplify it as you
claim.

I have personally experienced extremely repeatable software bugs in my
last Lexus as I mentioned earlier in this post. Lexus denied the problem
yet 2 other engineers of comparable experience to my own (35 + years
apiece) easily and clearly can demonstrate the issues.

You cannot see any connection between Wozniak's loss of accelerator
control and the sudden acceleration issue so many other people have
experienced and witnessed and reported? I can only conclude that you are
not interested in facts or reality, and I am entirely done entertaining
your nonsense and bullshit. You must either work for Toyota, be a total
troll, or lack even basic powers of reasoning and logic.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Wozniak-My-Prius-Speeds-Up-On-Its-Own--
871
07692.html

Oh come ON now, that has NOTHING to do with sudden acceleration.

Given the half dozen or more exchanges we have had, I can see that it is
entirely obvious that your mind was and still is made up that the
problem is entirely traceable to "idiot drivers" and publicity hounds,
including those who died.

Do you continue to insist that a misprogrammed cruise control that
gently accelerates the car--and which can be turned off by the driver
once he notices, if he's not butt-stupid--has anything to do with
"sudden acceleration"?

[David Z]

I can only conclude that you are not interested in facts or reality, and I
am entirely done entertaining your nonsense and bullshit. You must either
work for Toyota, be a total troll, or lack even basic powers of reasoning
and logic.

You have discovered the futility of trying to have an intelligent and
congenial conversation with Mr. Nasty. Welcome to the club. Usenet is
littered by many others who have come before you.

[Smarty]

Post by David Z

I can only conclude that you are not interested in facts or reality, and I
am entirely done entertaining your nonsense and bullshit. You must either
work for Toyota, be a total troll, or lack even basic powers of reasoning
and logic.

You have discovered the futility of trying to have an intelligent and
congenial conversation with Mr. Nasty. Welcome to the club. Usenet is
littered by many others who have come before you.

Thanks David for confirming my observations!

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
You apparently have not read Steve Wozniak's testimony,

Link?

Post by Smarty
How Toyota dealt with his complaint was IDIOTIC.

Link?

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Smarty
You apparently have not read Steve Wozniak's testimony,

Link?

Post by Smarty
How Toyota dealt with his complaint was IDIOTIC.

Link?

Still waiting for links, Smarty.

If you can't provide them--if you can't back up your stories--then you
have nothing.

On the other hand, we have the previous Audi witch hunt, which was
deemed not to be the fault of the car but rather the driver, and we have
the current Toyota witch hunt, which was deemed not to be the fault of
the car but of the driver.

Plus, we have the guy who blatantly tried to take advantage of the witch
hunt and fake "sudden acceleration", up to and including having a cop
drive next to him and then in front of him--only for us to find out that
he was faking it.

Idiots and rubes. Learn how to drive, learn which pedal is which, learn
about gears and how to operate your car.

[Smarty]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Smarty
I also thought that their handling of the "sudden acceleration" / floor
mat issue was outrageously poor. This was certainly a corporate issue,

No, it was an idiot issue.
In that, any idiot can own a car and get a license. He doesn't have to
know what he's doing, though.
I thought that the sensationalistic news organizations' handling of the
issue was outrageous, period.
Was anyone here around back in 1985, when 60 Minutes fucked Audi up the
ass sideways with a baton? All in the name of ratings?
This had nothing to do with the cars or the dealers or Toyota, and
everything to do with idiot drivers. Total idiot drivers.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/110020324372/toyota-prius-brake-complaints-start-pouring-in?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+worldcarfans%2FJxfz+%28WorldCarFans.com%29