Discussion:
Toyota Recalls Defective Engines in Lexus GS350, GS450h, GS460, IS350, LS460, LS600h, LS600hL
(too old to reply)
john
2010-07-07 00:54:53 UTC
Permalink
The company announced the latest quality problems last week, estimated
to affect about 270,000 vehicles around the world. Some 180,000 of the
defective automobiles were sold overseas, 138,000 of them in the
United States.

No accidents or injuries have been reported because of the defect.
About 220 complaints have been reported.

Toyota said it was replacing the valve spring in the recalled
vehicles, produced between July 2005 and August 2008 -- Lexus models
GS350, GS450h, GS460, IS350, LS460, LS600h, LS600hL and Crown models.

From The Detroit News:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100705/AUTO01/7050368/1148/auto01/Troubled-Toyota-recalls-some-92-000-cars-in-Japan#ixzz0sxBXUqGj
mcbrue
2010-07-07 02:49:07 UTC
Permalink
So what will that do to the cost of extended warranty contracts?

Will the Lexus reputation be able to spring back after this, do you
suppose?


Always a pleasure to see such a stable and sober leader of the
community coming in here to help us keep things in perspective.
Thanks!
ben91932
2010-07-07 15:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcbrue
So what will that do to the cost of extended warranty contracts?
Probably nothing.. Lexus will fix them all before the extended
warantee takes effect.
Post by mcbrue
Will the Lexus reputation be able to spring back after this, do you
suppose?
Yes I think Lexus will be just fine.
Post by mcbrue
Always a pleasure to see such a stable and sober leader of the
community coming in here to help us keep things in perspective.
Thanks!
That was a touch of sarcasm, right?
Larry Pollard
2010-07-07 03:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Hey John, when I look up randomly selected cards on

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov

I can clearly see that Toyota / Lexus typically have fewer recalls and
of less severity than Ford or GM. So what's your agenda, really?
American carmaker sent you to Mexico and your wife left you for the
gardner named Raoul shortly thereafter? Have no fear, the Japanese
are still making their cars in America, just apply for a job at
Toyota.
Gary L. Burnore
2010-07-07 03:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Pollard
Hey John, when I look up randomly selected cards on
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov
I can clearly see that Toyota / Lexus typically have fewer recalls and
of less severity than Ford or GM. So what's your agenda, really?
His best girl left him for a toyota tech.
Post by Larry Pollard
American carmaker sent you to Mexico and your wife left you for the
gardner named Raoul shortly thereafter? Have no fear, the Japanese
are still making their cars in America, just apply for a job at
Toyota.
--
gburnore at DataBasix dot Com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How you look depends on where you go.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary L. Burnore | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
. | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
| ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
. | ÝÛ 0 1 7 2 3 / Ý³Þ 3 7 4 9 3 0 Û³
Black Helicopter Repair Services, Ltd.| Official Proof of Purchase
===========================================================================
Heywood Jablowme
2010-07-07 14:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary L. Burnore
Post by Larry Pollard
Hey John, when I look up randomly selected cards on
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov
I can clearly see that Toyota / Lexus typically have fewer recalls and
of less severity than Ford or GM. So what's your agenda, really?
His best girl left him for a toyota tech.
john can't afford to keep a human girl. He has a latex girl. It's full of
patches! LOL!
jim beam
2010-07-07 03:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Pollard
Hey John, when I look up randomly selected cards on
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov
I can clearly see that Toyota / Lexus typically have fewer recalls and
of less severity than Ford or GM. So what's your agenda, really?
American carmaker sent you to Mexico and your wife left you for the
gardner named Raoul shortly thereafter? Have no fear, the Japanese
are still making their cars in America,
which is more than can be said for g.m. with all their drive shafts,
brakes, instruments, engine computers, seats, glass and wiring harnesses
being made in china thanks to american taxpayer bailout dollars.
Post by Larry Pollard
just apply for a job at
Toyota.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
C. E. White
2010-07-08 02:43:41 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Pollard" <***@gbustmail.com>
Newsgroups:
rec.autos.tech,alt.autos.toyota,alt.autos.toyota.camry,alt.autos.toyota.prius,alt.autos.lexus
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: Toyota Recalls Defective Engines in Lexus GS350, GS450h, GS460,
IS350, LS460, LS600h, LS600hL
Post by Larry Pollard
Hey John, when I look up randomly selected cards on
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov
I can clearly see that Toyota / Lexus typically have fewer recalls and
of less severity than Ford or GM.
So is this true, or do you only believe it to be true. Certainly it is easy
to pick years/models where GM or Ford had more recalls than Toyota, but it
is also easy to do the reverse. And given Toyota long history of covering
up defects, or at least trying to minimize the negative publicity by trying
to blame Customers or suppliers for problems, are you sure the "good" Toyota
statistics are meaningful?

For years Toyota was able to fly under the radar because they were a
relatively small player in the US market, mostly sold simplier cars that had
the bugs worked out in other markets, and were able to bury the details of
the defects in Japanese language reports in Japanese offices. Now that they
are one of the true "big three," introduce new design to the US market
concurrently with introduction in other markets, and have significant US
based engineering and manufacturing operations,. they are looking a whole
lot more like GM. Name a problem GM has had, and I'll bet Toyota as had it
also. Ask Toyota owners that suffered from sludged engines, defective
accelerator pedals, defective ball joints, rusted out frames, rollover prone
4Runners, blown head gaskets, disintegrating paint, etc, etc, about how
great Toyota Customer service is. Until recently it often required years of
fighting and threats from NHTSA before Toyota would even admit they had
problems. Maybe Toyota has changed but don't count on it.

Ed
Larry Pollard
2010-07-08 04:04:08 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:43:41 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
For years Toyota was able to fly under the radar because they were a
relatively small player in the US market, mostly sold simplier cars that had
the bugs worked out in other markets, and were able to bury the details of
the defects in Japanese language reports in Japanese offices. Now that they
are one of the true "big three," introduce new design to the US market
concurrently with introduction in other markets, and have significant US
based engineering and manufacturing operations,. they are looking a whole
lot more like GM. Name a problem GM has had, and I'll bet Toyota as had it
also. Ask Toyota owners that suffered from sludged engines, defective
accelerator pedals, defective ball joints, rusted out frames, rollover prone
4Runners, blown head gaskets, disintegrating paint, etc, etc, about how
great Toyota Customer service is. Until recently it often required years of
fighting and threats from NHTSA before Toyota would even admit they had
problems. Maybe Toyota has changed but don't count on it.
Looks like it's your word against any organization who ever did any
sort of survey or scientific testing. Do you wake up every morning
and decide to be a douchebag or only most days?
jim beam
2010-07-08 04:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Pollard
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:43:41 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
For years Toyota was able to fly under the radar because they were a
relatively small player in the US market, mostly sold simplier cars that had
the bugs worked out in other markets, and were able to bury the details of
the defects in Japanese language reports in Japanese offices. Now that they
are one of the true "big three," introduce new design to the US market
concurrently with introduction in other markets, and have significant US
based engineering and manufacturing operations,. they are looking a whole
lot more like GM. Name a problem GM has had, and I'll bet Toyota as had it
also. Ask Toyota owners that suffered from sludged engines, defective
accelerator pedals, defective ball joints, rusted out frames, rollover prone
4Runners, blown head gaskets, disintegrating paint, etc, etc, about how
great Toyota Customer service is. Until recently it often required years of
fighting and threats from NHTSA before Toyota would even admit they had
problems. Maybe Toyota has changed but don't count on it.
Looks like it's your word against any organization who ever did any
sort of survey or scientific testing. Do you wake up every morning
and decide to be a douchebag or only most days?
ed didn't "decide" to be a douchebag - he gets paid to write that crap.

it's pathetic, but there's a whole world of shills out there that write
false product reviews, write fake letters to editors, and generally
"astroturf" anywhere where public opinion can be formed and money made.
i know this for fact because i've been approached by manufacturers to
do it for certain products too. and in the past, a firm i worked for
hired others to do it for stuff they were trying to position. it's just
a fact of life - another form of the world's oldest profession.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Larry Pollard
2010-07-08 13:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim beam
Post by Larry Pollard
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:43:41 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
For years Toyota was able to fly under the radar because they were a
relatively small player in the US market, mostly sold simplier cars that had
the bugs worked out in other markets, and were able to bury the details of
the defects in Japanese language reports in Japanese offices. Now that they
are one of the true "big three," introduce new design to the US market
concurrently with introduction in other markets, and have significant US
based engineering and manufacturing operations,. they are looking a whole
lot more like GM. Name a problem GM has had, and I'll bet Toyota as had it
also. Ask Toyota owners that suffered from sludged engines, defective
accelerator pedals, defective ball joints, rusted out frames, rollover prone
4Runners, blown head gaskets, disintegrating paint, etc, etc, about how
great Toyota Customer service is. Until recently it often required years of
fighting and threats from NHTSA before Toyota would even admit they had
problems. Maybe Toyota has changed but don't count on it.
Looks like it's your word against any organization who ever did any
sort of survey or scientific testing. Do you wake up every morning
and decide to be a douchebag or only most days?
ed didn't "decide" to be a douchebag - he gets paid to write that crap.
it's pathetic, but there's a whole world of shills out there that write
false product reviews, write fake letters to editors, and generally
"astroturf" anywhere where public opinion can be formed and money made.
i know this for fact because i've been approached by manufacturers to
do it for certain products too. and in the past, a firm i worked for
hired others to do it for stuff they were trying to position. it's just
a fact of life - another form of the world's oldest profession.
No doubt. Even our legal system encourages payola for "expert
witnesses". There is nothing that prevents or even deters a legal
team from hiring someone with good paper credentials to "find" this or
that.

But is this guy really a good enough writer to do this professionally?
I doubt it. And also since the audience of Usenet has diminished
greatly over the years, it wouldn't really be an efficient use of time
or money for someone to pay him to troll here.
C. E. White
2010-07-08 14:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Pollard
No doubt. Even our legal system encourages payola for "expert
witnesses". There is nothing that prevents or even deters a legal
team from hiring someone with good paper credentials to "find" this or
that.
But is this guy really a good enough writer to do this professionally?
I doubt it. And also since the audience of Usenet has diminished
greatly over the years, it wouldn't really be an efficient use of time
or money for someone to pay him to troll here.
You need to understand Jim Bean. He thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him
is either an idiot or a paid shill. He attacks me and claims I am a paid
shill because I don't go along with his "party line" regarding the supposed
awesome quality of Japanese cars.



The truth is I am just an ordinary citizen who has owned all sorts of cars
from most manufacturers, or at least had close family members that did. I
have never believed all the BS about how great Toyota are. I owned one years
ago and it was a turd. Others in my family have owned them and currently
there are 5 Toyotas in my close family group. All of them have so far been
reliable. I particularly like my Mother's Highlander (I should, I
recommended it to her) and particularly dislike the 3 RAV4 owned by the
group ( POS ergonomics being my main gripe - but the actual owners are very
happy). My experience has been that Toyota builds vehicles with quality and
longevity comparable to vehicles from other major manufacturers. Some
Toyotas are good and some are bad. I do think tht in the past Toyota has
routinely misled Customers and worked very hard to cover up significant
defects. The sudden acceleration "issue" finally exposed some of these
practices. I think it is ironic that this isn't even close to the most
blatant customer dis-service issue. On a percentage of vehicles sold, rusted
truck frames, defective ball joints, rollover prone 4Runners, and others
were all much more significant cases of Toyota quality and design problems
but they never generated the sort of firestorm related to the UA issue. And
even the origin of the UA firestorm (the match that lit the fire so to
speak) was not Toyota's fault in any meaningful way (the Lexus out of
control in California). But now that the cat is out of the bag, Toyota is
getting the sort of scrutiny that was absent in the past. It is well
deserved.


Ed
jim beam
2010-07-08 15:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. White
Post by Larry Pollard
No doubt. Even our legal system encourages payola for "expert
witnesses". There is nothing that prevents or even deters a legal
team from hiring someone with good paper credentials to "find" this or
that.
But is this guy really a good enough writer to do this professionally?
I doubt it. And also since the audience of Usenet has diminished
greatly over the years, it wouldn't really be an efficient use of time
or money for someone to pay him to troll here.
You need to understand Jim Bean. He thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him
is either an idiot or a paid shill. He attacks me and claims I am a paid
shill because I don't go along with his "party line" regarding the supposed
awesome quality of Japanese cars.
The truth is I am just an ordinary citizen
sure you are ed. that's why you blindly and steadfastly regurgitate the
party line, even when it it is blatantly and patently bullshit.
Post by C. E. White
who has owned all sorts of cars
from most manufacturers, or at least had close family members that did. I
have never believed all the BS about how great Toyota are. I owned one years
ago and it was a turd. Others in my family have owned them and currently
there are 5 Toyotas in my close family group. All of them have so far been
reliable. I particularly like my Mother's Highlander (I should, I
recommended it to her) and particularly dislike the 3 RAV4 owned by the
group ( POS ergonomics being my main gripe - but the actual owners are very
happy). My experience has been that Toyota builds vehicles with quality and
longevity comparable to vehicles from other major manufacturers. Some
Toyotas are good and some are bad. I do think tht in the past Toyota has
routinely misled Customers and worked very hard to cover up significant
defects. The sudden acceleration "issue" finally exposed some of these
practices. I think it is ironic that this isn't even close to the most
blatant customer dis-service issue. On a percentage of vehicles sold, rusted
truck frames, defective ball joints, rollover prone 4Runners, and others
were all much more significant cases of Toyota quality and design problems
but they never generated the sort of firestorm related to the UA issue. And
even the origin of the UA firestorm (the match that lit the fire so to
speak) was not Toyota's fault in any meaningful way (the Lexus out of
control in California). But now that the cat is out of the bag, Toyota is
getting the sort of scrutiny that was absent in the past. It is well
deserved.
so ed, apart from being full of it, where is your "scrutiny" of your
employers failing to, ahem, "notice" that the billions of taxpayer
dollars used to keep them afloat are in fact being used to support
chinese jobs, not american? because that's where g.m. gets its
componentry. unlike toyota that not only assembles its vehicle here,
but does so with AMERICAN-SOURCED COMPONENTRY.

oh, wait, am i not supposed to point out the facts??? [rhetorical]
Post by C. E. White
Ed
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
C. E. White
2010-07-08 16:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim beam
Post by C. E. White
Post by Larry Pollard
No doubt. Even our legal system encourages payola for "expert
witnesses". There is nothing that prevents or even deters a legal
team from hiring someone with good paper credentials to "find" this or
that.
But is this guy really a good enough writer to do this professionally?
I doubt it. And also since the audience of Usenet has diminished
greatly over the years, it wouldn't really be an efficient use of time
or money for someone to pay him to troll here.
You need to understand Jim Bean. He thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him
is either an idiot or a paid shill. He attacks me and claims I am a paid
shill because I don't go along with his "party line" regarding the supposed
awesome quality of Japanese cars.
The truth is I am just an ordinary citizen
sure you are ed. that's why you blindly and steadfastly regurgitate the
party line, even when it it is blatantly and patently bullshit.
Post by C. E. White
who has owned all sorts of cars
from most manufacturers, or at least had close family members that did. I
have never believed all the BS about how great Toyota are. I owned one years
ago and it was a turd. Others in my family have owned them and currently
there are 5 Toyotas in my close family group. All of them have so far been
reliable. I particularly like my Mother's Highlander (I should, I
recommended it to her) and particularly dislike the 3 RAV4 owned by the
group ( POS ergonomics being my main gripe - but the actual owners are very
happy). My experience has been that Toyota builds vehicles with quality and
longevity comparable to vehicles from other major manufacturers. Some
Toyotas are good and some are bad. I do think tht in the past Toyota has
routinely misled Customers and worked very hard to cover up significant
defects. The sudden acceleration "issue" finally exposed some of these
practices. I think it is ironic that this isn't even close to the most
blatant customer dis-service issue. On a percentage of vehicles sold, rusted
truck frames, defective ball joints, rollover prone 4Runners, and others
were all much more significant cases of Toyota quality and design problems
but they never generated the sort of firestorm related to the UA issue. And
even the origin of the UA firestorm (the match that lit the fire so to
speak) was not Toyota's fault in any meaningful way (the Lexus out of
control in California). But now that the cat is out of the bag, Toyota is
getting the sort of scrutiny that was absent in the past. It is well
deserved.
so ed, apart from being full of it, where is your "scrutiny" of your
employers failing to, ahem, "notice" that the billions of taxpayer dollars
used to keep them afloat are in fact being used to support chinese jobs,
not american? because that's where g.m. gets its componentry. unlike
toyota that not only assembles its vehicle here, but does so with
AMERICAN-SOURCED COMPONENTRY.
My employer is not involved in the car industry (at least not directly - I
am sure they all buy some of our stuff - including Toyota). I don't actually
think you believe I am a paid shill. I think you just use that as an excuse
to justify some of your more ridiculous attacks. As far as motives are
concerned, it seems to me you have never come clean about yours. You
repeatedly attack GM and praise Toyota. This leads me to believe you have an
axe to grind with GM and that you feel the need to kiss Toyota's a*&%. I can
almost understand the anti-GM stuff, but given your seemingly pro-American
rhetoric, I don't understand you praise for a foreign owned / foreign
government supported company that has caused the loss of tens of thousands
of American jobs (some of which they have "graciously" replaced with lower
paying jobs).
Post by jim beam
oh, wait, am i not supposed to point out the facts??? [rhetorical]
It is easy enough to find comparison of domestic content for the various
makes and models of automobiles. I posted links to this sort of information
many times. Take a look at:



http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html

http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/ci.Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Act+(AALA)+Reports.print



As for Toyota not buying parts in China - you are an idiot. The Toyota brand
floor mats I ordered for my Mother's Highlander came in a Toyota logo box
with a made in china label. Toyota does business in China just like almost
every other company foreign and domestic. We might not like the practice (I
don't like it either), but singling out GM for buying parts from the Chinese
is not fair. If you want to attack manufacturers for buying from the
Chinese, attack them all (at least all the ones in the US - I am not sure
about the European manufacturers).\



Ed
jim beam
2010-07-08 17:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. White
Post by jim beam
Post by C. E. White
Post by Larry Pollard
No doubt. Even our legal system encourages payola for "expert
witnesses". There is nothing that prevents or even deters a legal
team from hiring someone with good paper credentials to "find" this or
that.
But is this guy really a good enough writer to do this professionally?
I doubt it. And also since the audience of Usenet has diminished
greatly over the years, it wouldn't really be an efficient use of time
or money for someone to pay him to troll here.
You need to understand Jim Bean. He thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him
is either an idiot or a paid shill. He attacks me and claims I am a paid
shill because I don't go along with his "party line" regarding the supposed
awesome quality of Japanese cars.
The truth is I am just an ordinary citizen
sure you are ed. that's why you blindly and steadfastly regurgitate the
party line, even when it it is blatantly and patently bullshit.
Post by C. E. White
who has owned all sorts of cars
from most manufacturers, or at least had close family members that did. I
have never believed all the BS about how great Toyota are. I owned one years
ago and it was a turd. Others in my family have owned them and currently
there are 5 Toyotas in my close family group. All of them have so far been
reliable. I particularly like my Mother's Highlander (I should, I
recommended it to her) and particularly dislike the 3 RAV4 owned by the
group ( POS ergonomics being my main gripe - but the actual owners are very
happy). My experience has been that Toyota builds vehicles with quality and
longevity comparable to vehicles from other major manufacturers. Some
Toyotas are good and some are bad. I do think tht in the past Toyota has
routinely misled Customers and worked very hard to cover up significant
defects. The sudden acceleration "issue" finally exposed some of these
practices. I think it is ironic that this isn't even close to the most
blatant customer dis-service issue. On a percentage of vehicles sold, rusted
truck frames, defective ball joints, rollover prone 4Runners, and others
were all much more significant cases of Toyota quality and design problems
but they never generated the sort of firestorm related to the UA issue. And
even the origin of the UA firestorm (the match that lit the fire so to
speak) was not Toyota's fault in any meaningful way (the Lexus out of
control in California). But now that the cat is out of the bag, Toyota is
getting the sort of scrutiny that was absent in the past. It is well
deserved.
so ed, apart from being full of it, where is your "scrutiny" of your
employers failing to, ahem, "notice" that the billions of taxpayer dollars
used to keep them afloat are in fact being used to support chinese jobs,
not american? because that's where g.m. gets its componentry. unlike
toyota that not only assembles its vehicle here, but does so with
AMERICAN-SOURCED COMPONENTRY.
My employer is not involved in the car industry (at least not directly - I
am sure they all buy some of our stuff - including Toyota).
"your employer"??? but you masquerade as an ordinary farmer ed! and
"not directly involved" means what exactly? you mean the p.r. and
lobbying industries don't actually manufacture cars???
Post by C. E. White
I don't actually
think you believe I am a paid shill. I think you just use that as an excuse
to justify some of your more ridiculous attacks.
don't put false words in my mouth ed - i most definitely do believe
you're a paid shill. no rational educated individual could possibly
have the bullshit "opinions" you have without some kind of prostitution.
Post by C. E. White
As far as motives are
concerned, it seems to me you have never come clean about yours. You
repeatedly attack GM and praise Toyota. This leads me to believe you have an
axe to grind with GM and that you feel the need to kiss Toyota's a*&%.
wrong. don't put false words in my mouth.
Post by C. E. White
I can
almost understand the anti-GM stuff, but given your seemingly pro-American
rhetoric, I don't understand you praise for a foreign owned / foreign
government supported company that has caused the loss of tens of thousands
of American jobs (some of which they have "graciously" replaced with lower
paying jobs).
dodge and weave. why are you condoning the [mis]use of american
taxpayers dollars being used to support jobs in china ed? because
you're paid to!
Post by C. E. White
Post by jim beam
oh, wait, am i not supposed to point out the facts??? [rhetorical]
It is easy enough to find comparison of domestic content for the various
makes and models of automobiles. I posted links to this sort of information
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html
you've cited that "article" before ed, but it doesn't state its sources.
god forbid they should ever make a "mistake" or skew the numbers in
any way.
Post by C. E. White
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/ci.Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Act+(AALA)+Reports.print
you apparently can't read. "country of origin" is carefully defined as
country of assembly, not the country from which the components were
actually produced. all the componentry i cited is made in china,
carefully not included in that list, and automatically redefined by
"assembly" here in the u.s.
Post by C. E. White
As for Toyota not buying parts in China - you are an idiot. The Toyota brand
floor mats I ordered for my Mother's Highlander came in a Toyota logo box
with a made in china label.
floor mats ed. not engine computers, instruments, brakes, glass, seats,
wiring harnesses, drive-shafts, all of which are made in china and used
by g.m. none of which are used by toyota in the manufacture of their
american vehicles, made with american componentry.
Post by C. E. White
Toyota does business in China just like almost
every other company foreign and domestic. We might not like the practice (I
don't like it either), but singling out GM for buying parts from the Chinese
is not fair.
why do american taxpayers need to support chinese jobs ed? toyota
started manufacturing here due to tax pressure. it's utterly ridiculous
and completely indefensible to not ensure that american taxpayer bailout
dollars given to g.m. have no "must use american components" strings
attached.
Post by C. E. White
If you want to attack manufacturers for buying from the
Chinese, attack them all (at least all the ones in the US - I am not sure
about the European manufacturers).\
but i do ed. and if you're "not sure" ed, that's because you're not
paid to be "sure".
Post by C. E. White
Ed
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
C. E. White
2010-07-08 20:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. E. White
Post by jim beam
Post by C. E. White
Post by Larry Pollard
No doubt. Even our legal system encourages payola for "expert
witnesses". There is nothing that prevents or even deters a legal
team from hiring someone with good paper credentials to "find" this or
that.
But is this guy really a good enough writer to do this professionally?
I doubt it. And also since the audience of Usenet has diminished
greatly over the years, it wouldn't really be an efficient use of time
or money for someone to pay him to troll here.
You need to understand Jim Bean. He thinks anyone who doesn't agree
with
him
is either an idiot or a paid shill. He attacks me and claims I am a paid
shill because I don't go along with his "party line" regarding the supposed
awesome quality of Japanese cars.
The truth is I am just an ordinary citizen
sure you are ed. that's why you blindly and steadfastly regurgitate the
party line, even when it it is blatantly and patently bullshit.
Post by C. E. White
who has owned all sorts of cars
from most manufacturers, or at least had close family members that did. I
have never believed all the BS about how great Toyota are. I owned one years
ago and it was a turd. Others in my family have owned them and currently
there are 5 Toyotas in my close family group. All of them have so far been
reliable. I particularly like my Mother's Highlander (I should, I
recommended it to her) and particularly dislike the 3 RAV4 owned by the
group ( POS ergonomics being my main gripe - but the actual owners are very
happy). My experience has been that Toyota builds vehicles with quality and
longevity comparable to vehicles from other major manufacturers. Some
Toyotas are good and some are bad. I do think tht in the past Toyota has
routinely misled Customers and worked very hard to cover up significant
defects. The sudden acceleration "issue" finally exposed some of these
practices. I think it is ironic that this isn't even close to the most
blatant customer dis-service issue. On a percentage of vehicles sold, rusted
truck frames, defective ball joints, rollover prone 4Runners, and others
were all much more significant cases of Toyota quality and design problems
but they never generated the sort of firestorm related to the UA issue. And
even the origin of the UA firestorm (the match that lit the fire so to
speak) was not Toyota's fault in any meaningful way (the Lexus out of
control in California). But now that the cat is out of the bag, Toyota is
getting the sort of scrutiny that was absent in the past. It is well
deserved.
so ed, apart from being full of it, where is your "scrutiny" of your
employers failing to, ahem, "notice" that the billions of taxpayer dollars
used to keep them afloat are in fact being used to support chinese jobs,
not american? because that's where g.m. gets its componentry. unlike
toyota that not only assembles its vehicle here, but does so with
AMERICAN-SOURCED COMPONENTRY.
My employer is not involved in the car industry (at least not directly - I
am sure they all buy some of our stuff - including Toyota).
"your employer"??? but you masquerade as an ordinary farmer ed! and "not
directly involved" means what exactly? you mean the p.r. and lobbying
industries don't actually manufacture cars???
I've never claimed to be an "ordinary farmer." If you read older postts I
think you'll see that I ahve never claimed that I am a full time farmer. I
own a realtively small (by today's standards) farm in northeastern NC
(around 350 acres of cropland and pasture). My farm is too small to make a
decent living given the current depressed commodity prices (my Father raised
three children on even fewer acres, but that was 25 years ago). So I have a
"real" job with a corporation. I am fortunate in that I have lots of
vacation time saved up and my employer provides flexible scheduling. Between
vacation, weekend, and the occasional 4 day week I am able to keep the farm
going and still keep my real job.
Post by C. E. White
I don't actually
think you believe I am a paid shill. I think you just use that as an excuse
to justify some of your more ridiculous attacks.
don't put false words in my mouth ed - i most definitely do believe you're
a paid shill. no rational educated individual could possibly have the
bullshit "opinions" you have without some kind of prostitution.
So what BS opinion do I have that is so "out there." Pointing out that
Toyta's are nothing special is hardly an "extreme" position. Your wacko
claims seem far more extreem than anything I have said.
Post by C. E. White
As far as motives are
concerned, it seems to me you have never come clean about yours. You
repeatedly attack GM and praise Toyota. This leads me to believe you have an
axe to grind with GM and that you feel the need to kiss Toyota's a*&%.
wrong. don't put false words in my mouth.
What is wrong with the statement? Don't you repeatedly attack GM? Haven't
you repeatedly defended Toyota?
Post by C. E. White
I can
almost understand the anti-GM stuff, but given your seemingly
pro-American
rhetoric, I don't understand you praise for a foreign owned / foreign
government supported company that has caused the loss of tens of thousands
of American jobs (some of which they have "graciously" replaced with lower
paying jobs).
dodge and weave. why are you condoning the [mis]use of american taxpayers
dollars being used to support jobs in china ed? because you're paid to!
This is an idiot statement. And it is wrong besides. Show me one time I have
condoned the use of American dollars to support jobs uin China.
Post by C. E. White
Post by jim beam
oh, wait, am i not supposed to point out the facts??? [rhetorical]
It is easy enough to find comparison of domestic content for the various
makes and models of automobiles. I posted links to this sort of information
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html
you've cited that "article" before ed, but it doesn't state its sources.
god forbid they should ever make a "mistake" or skew the numbers in any
way.
It is what it is. I didn't write and have n reason to think it is any more
slanted that many other similar studies. They all start out with the same
data provided to the Government as a result of the American Automobile
Labeling Act.
Post by C. E. White
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/ci.Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Act+(AALA)+Reports.print
you apparently can't read. "country of origin" is carefully defined as
country of assembly, not the country from which the components were
actually produced. all the componentry i cited is made in china,
carefully not included in that list, and automatically redefined by
"assembly" here in the u.s.
No, you have not carefully read the rules. Did you even look at the
reference? here is jsut a small part of the lenghty description from the
reference:

Vehicle manufacturers must calculate the equipment content percentages for
their carlines prior to the beginning of the model year. They estimate the
number of vehicles and subgroups of vehicles that will be built within each
carline, e.g., the number of base level and high-line models. For each
carline, the calculation of U.S./Canadian content percentage also includes:
1. The U.S./Canadian content (by value) of each item of motor vehicle
equipment that will be used to assemble the vehicles within the carline;

2. The total value of each equipment item, i.e., the price the
manufacturer will pay for it (this information is typically provided by the
manufacturer's suppliers); and

3. The total number of each of the equipment items that will be used to
assemble the vehicles within the car line during the model year.

BTW - If you actually go look at the label on the new vehicles they also
indicate where the engine and transmission were made.
Post by C. E. White
As for Toyota not buying parts in China - you are an idiot. The Toyota brand
floor mats I ordered for my Mother's Highlander came in a Toyota logo box
with a made in china label.
floor mats ed. not engine computers, instruments, brakes, glass, seats,
wiring harnesses, drive-shafts, all of which are made in china and used by
g.m. none of which are used by toyota in the manufacture of their
american vehicles, made with american componentry
You have zero proof that none of the Toyota parts used to assemble cars come
from China. ZERO. You are just making this up as some sort of defence of
Toyoya. Toyota has numerous manufacturing plants in China. Toyotya does
buisness with many Chinese suppliers. Althoguh I can't prove it, since I do
not have access to COO labels for all the parts in a a Toyota, I feel
certain that Toyota sources significant numbers of parts in China.
Post by C. E. White
Toyota does business in China just like almost
every other company foreign and domestic. We might not like the practice (I
don't like it either), but singling out GM for buying parts from the Chinese
is not fair.
why do american taxpayers need to support chinese jobs ed? toyota started
manufacturing here due to tax pressure. it's utterly ridiculous and
completely indefensible to not ensure that american taxpayer bailout
dollars given to g.m. have no "must use american components" strings
attached.
I am not interested in defending the way the GM bailout was handled. I have
alawys said that was wrong. GM should have been allowed to go into
bankruptcy. For political reasons that I opposed, the current administration
choose to essentially nationlize GM and give a significant chunk of it to
the UAW. It was wrong. Don't paint me as defending that nosense.
Post by C. E. White
If you want to attack manufacturers for buying from the
Chinese, attack them all (at least all the ones in the US - I am not sure
about the European manufacturers).\
but i do ed. and if you're "not sure" ed, that's because you're not paid
to be "sure".
Where are your attacks on Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. They all do buisness
with China. Don't hold back, go after all of them. I am OK with any legal
means of reducing our increasing dependence on the Chinese. But I am sure
you will again defelect attention form the Japanese companies you kiss up to
and rant about GM again.

Ed
Larry Pollard
2010-07-09 02:59:10 UTC
Permalink
...they are simply here to troll and cause trouble, the likes of C.E.
White, john, etc.

They didn't get enough attention as children, and have nothing
positive to contribute to society (much less usenet), so they come
here under the pretense of knowledge sharing in order to make up the
attention that mommy and daddy did not provide.

Here's a tip douchebags, if our vehicles have a known issue, recall,
etc. Those of us who really like to keep up with car news will know
about the recall long before we get the notice in the mail.

So your assistance in these forums is neither required nor welcomed;
given this fact, the only reason you might continue to post here is to
troll.
Thibaud Taudin Chabot
2010-07-09 08:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Pollard
...they are simply here to troll and cause trouble, the likes of C.E.
White, john, etc.
They didn't get enough attention as children, and have nothing
positive to contribute to society (much less usenet), so they come
here under the pretense of knowledge sharing in order to make up the
attention that mommy and daddy did not provide.
Here's a tip douchebags, if our vehicles have a known issue, recall,
etc. Those of us who really like to keep up with car news will know
about the recall long before we get the notice in the mail.
So your assistance in these forums is neither required nor welcomed;
given this fact, the only reason you might continue to post here is to
troll.
jealous for not having such a car and therefore not being a victim that
is in the news....?
Oscar Finkleheimer
2010-07-09 11:39:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Pollard
...they are simply here to troll and cause trouble, the likes of C.E.
White, john, etc.
They didn't get enough attention as children, and have nothing
positive to contribute to society (much less usenet), so they come
here under the pretense of knowledge sharing in order to make up the
attention that mommy and daddy did not provide.
Here's a tip douchebags, if our vehicles have a known issue, recall,
etc. Those of us who really like to keep up with car news will know
about the recall long before we get the notice in the mail.
So your assistance in these forums is neither required nor welcomed;
given this fact, the only reason you might continue to post here is to
troll.
YOU should talk. Look in the mirror you dink-head.
little johnny
2010-07-11 14:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Apparently in a Ford the fuckin roof can cave in on your head and your
brakes in your Jeep can fail, sending you crashing into a retailing
wall and sending you through the windshield, decrapitating you like a
soldier getting his head sawed off by the talibans.

http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/cars/chrysler-ford-announce-recalls-1.2093219
C. E. White
2010-07-12 12:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by little johnny
Apparently in a Ford the fuckin roof can cave in on your head
Not exactly the roof - it says the head liner. Not a good thing, but far
less worrisome that having the "roof cave in on your head."

Ed

and your
Post by little johnny
brakes in your Jeep can fail, sending you crashing into a retailing
wall and sending you through the windshield, decrapitating you like a
soldier getting his head sawed off by the talibans.
http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/cars/chrysler-ford-announce-recalls-1.2093219
ttle johnny
2010-07-13 01:06:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:52:53 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
Post by little johnny
Apparently in a Ford the fuckin roof can cave in on your head
Not exactly the roof - it says the head liner. Not a good thing, but far
less worrisome that having the "roof cave in on your head."
Not when the head liner falls down over your eyes, impairing your
vision and causing you hit a Ford Pinto from behind, which in turn
explodes and turns you into a screaming fireball with an epiphany that
a head liner that won't stay put is indeed worrisome.
C. E. White
2010-07-13 11:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ttle johnny
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:52:53 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
Post by little johnny
Apparently in a Ford the fuckin roof can cave in on your head
Not exactly the roof - it says the head liner. Not a good thing, but far
less worrisome that having the "roof cave in on your head."
Not when the head liner falls down over your eyes, impairing your
vision and causing you hit a Ford Pinto from behind, which in turn
explodes and turns you into a screaming fireball with an epiphany that
a head liner that won't stay put is indeed worrisome.
The headliner came down during a crash test, not during routine driving. The
way it seems to me, this is a minor issue. You have a crash and during the
crash a piece of flock covered cardboard drops down. I don't think the
cardboard would be your biggest concern at that point.

Ed
little johnny
2010-07-13 22:37:20 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:38:42 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
Post by ttle johnny
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:52:53 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
Post by little johnny
Apparently in a Ford the fuckin roof can cave in on your head
Not exactly the roof - it says the head liner. Not a good thing, but far
less worrisome that having the "roof cave in on your head."
Not when the head liner falls down over your eyes, impairing your
vision and causing you hit a Ford Pinto from behind, which in turn
explodes and turns you into a screaming fireball with an epiphany that
a head liner that won't stay put is indeed worrisome.
The headliner came down during a crash test, not during routine driving. The
way it seems to me, this is a minor issue. You have a crash and during the
crash a piece of flock covered cardboard drops down. I don't think the
cardboard would be your biggest concern at that point.
Just because it only occurred under one test circumstance does not
mean that's the only way it can occur. An unsecured headliner is an
unsecured headliner and is dangerous. Someone probably thought that
putting all weather mats over top of carpet ones would be no big deal
as well. Also why aren't you talking about the failed Jeep brakes,
are you only a fan of Ford? If so, why are you pestering Toyota and
Lexus newsgroups?
C. E. White
2010-07-14 13:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by little johnny
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:38:42 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
Post by ttle johnny
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:52:53 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
Post by little johnny
Apparently in a Ford the fuckin roof can cave in on your head
Not exactly the roof - it says the head liner. Not a good thing, but far
less worrisome that having the "roof cave in on your head."
Not when the head liner falls down over your eyes, impairing your
vision and causing you hit a Ford Pinto from behind, which in turn
explodes and turns you into a screaming fireball with an epiphany that
a head liner that won't stay put is indeed worrisome.
The headliner came down during a crash test, not during routine driving. The
way it seems to me, this is a minor issue. You have a crash and during the
crash a piece of flock covered cardboard drops down. I don't think the
cardboard would be your biggest concern at that point.
Just because it only occurred under one test circumstance does not
mean that's the only way it can occur. An unsecured headliner is an
unsecured headliner and is dangerous. Someone probably thought that
putting all weather mats over top of carpet ones would be no big deal
as well. Also why aren't you talking about the failed Jeep brakes,
are you only a fan of Ford? If so, why are you pestering Toyota and
Lexus newsgroups?
I was just pointing out that the headliner came down during a crash test,
not during normal driving. The OP (you) made it sound like this could occur
as an everyday event. Nothing I read indicated that the headliner was
unsecured in the manner you are suggesting. It seem to me that you were
going out of your way to over dramatize a Ford recall. I suppose this was a
lame attempt to excuse Toyota errors. I didn't comment on the Jeep recall
becasue there wasn't as much information available on that one. I do think
the OP (you) did sort of resorted to hyperbole on that one as well.

I wasn't "pestering" the Toyota and Lexus groups. I was jsut responding to
the original over the top post (yours).

Here is the official NHTSA text for the Transit Recall:

Vehicle Make / Model: Model Year(s):
FORD / TRANSIT CONNECT 2010

Manufacturer: FORD MOTOR COMPANY Mfr's Report Date: JUL 06, 2010
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 10V316000 N/A
NHTSA Action Number: N/A

Component: STRUCTURE:BODY:ROOF AND PILLARS

Potential Number of Units Affected: 33728 Summary:

FORD IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2010 TRANSIT CONNECT VEHICLES
MANUFACTURED FROM DECEMBER 5, 2008 THROUGH MAY 31, 2010 FOR FAILING TO MEET
THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS OF FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 201,
"OCCUPANT PROTECTION IN INTERIOR IMPACT." DURING VEHICLE TESTING THE VEHICLE
EXCEEDED HEAD INJURY CRITERIA REQUIREMENTS SET BY THE STANDARD. THE
HEADLINER RETENTION PUSHPIN LOCATED ON THE HEADLINER ABOVE THE B-PILLAR TRIM
ON BOTH THE LEFT AND RIGHT SIDE OF THE VEHICLES NEEDS TO BE REPLACED.
Consequence:
IN THE EVENT OF A VEHICLE CRASH, AN OCCUPANT COULD BE AT AN INCREASED RISK
OF INJURY. Remedy:
FORD WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND DEALERS WILL REPAIR THE VEHICLES FREE OF
CHARGE. THE SAFETY RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON OR ABOUT JULY 19, 2010.
OWNERS MAY CONTACT FORD MOTOR COMPANY AT 1-866-436-7332. Notes:
FORD'S RECALL CAMPAIGN NUMBER IS 10C13. OWNERS MAY ALSO CONTACT THE
NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE AT
1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), OR GO TO HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV .

Notice it says nothing about the headliner falling down outside of a crash
senario.

Here is what NHTSA says on the Chrysler recall:

Vehicle Make / Model: Model Year(s):
DODGE / NITRO 2010

DODGE / RAM 2010

JEEP / LIBERTY 2010

JEEP / WRANGLER 2010

Manufacturer: CHRYSLER GROUP LLC Mfr's Report Date: JUL 07, 2010
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 10V315000 N/A
NHTSA Action Number: N/A

Component: SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC:FOUNDATION COMPONENTS:MASTER CYLINDER
Potential Number of Units Affected:

Summary:
CHRYSLER IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2010 LEFT HAND DRIVE JEEP LIBERTY,
DODGE NITRO AND RAM 1500 TRUCK; RIGHT AND LEFT HAND DRIVE JEEP WRANGLER
VEHICLES. THESE VEHICLES MAY HAVE BEEN BUILT WITH AN IMPROPERLY FORMED
MASTER CYLINDER TO HYDRAULIC CONTROL UNIT (HCU) BRAKE TUBE ASSEMBLY END
FLARE. Consequence:
THIS COULD LEAD TO LOSS OF BRAKE FLUID AND REDUCED BRAKING PERFORMANCE
INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH. Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE BRAKE TUBES FREE OF CHARGE. THE SAFETY RECALL IS
EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING AUGUST 2010. OWNERS MAY CONTACT CHRYSLER TOLL-FREE
AT 1-800-853-1403. Notes:
CHRYSLER SAFETY RECALL NO. K15. OWNERS MAY ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL
HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE AT
1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), OR GO TO HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV .

Seems a lot less dramatic than your retelling.
john shat the bed
2010-07-14 00:43:25 UTC
Permalink
Turns out a bunch of former Ford and GM owners were trying to drive a
real car for a change and screwed the pooch. It was the nut that
holds the wheel after all.

http://www.dailytech.com/NHTSA+Points+to+Driver+Error+in+Toyota+Sudden+Acceleration+Debacle/article19026.htm
Booyah
2010-07-14 03:15:07 UTC
Permalink
... it was only a matter of time before that cockbiter chipped a
tooth...
Wayne
2010-07-14 14:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by john shat the bed
Turns out a bunch of former Ford and GM owners were trying to drive a
real car for a change and screwed the pooch. It was the nut that
holds the wheel after all.
http://www.dailytech.com/NHTSA+Points+to+Driver+Error+in+Toyota+Sudden+Acceleration+Debacle/article19026.htm
OK...guess that means that Toyota still sucks, but detractors will have to
dream up the reason.
jim beam
2010-07-14 15:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne
Post by john shat the bed
Turns out a bunch of former Ford and GM owners were trying to drive a
real car for a change and screwed the pooch. It was the nut that
holds the wheel after all.
http://www.dailytech.com/NHTSA+Points+to+Driver+Error+in+Toyota+Sudden+Acceleration+Debacle/article19026.htm
OK...guess that means that Toyota still sucks, but detractors will have to
dream up the reason.
the funniest thing is scanning the headilnes over different feeds. the
above cites nhtsa as the source. the sensationalists re-spin it as
"toyota says..."

100% political bullshit from a bunch of hypocritical sssholes that have
abused billions of american taxpayer dollars to facilitate g.m. shipping
their jobs and technology to china. the russians may spy, but at least
it's costing them money to do so. the chinese have taken it to the
point of getting us to sponsor them! utterly ridiculous.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@
2010-07-09 12:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim beam
Post by C. E. White
I don't actually
think you believe I am a paid shill. I think you just use that as an excuse
to justify some of your more ridiculous attacks.
don't put false words in my mouth ed - i most definitely do believe
you're a paid shill. no rational educated individual could possibly
have the bullshit "opinions" you have without some kind of prostitution.
This statement gives a glimpse inside a mind completely sucked in to its own delusional fantasy.

Any one who doesn't agree with the illustrious magnificent Mr. Bean is obviously not just an ordinary
individual with ordinary opinions. No. No it is absolutely certain that could not be possible. It is
indisputably evident that the only reason Mr. Bean is losing this argument is because he is arguing with an
entire legion of highly paid researchers and writers that is just posing as an ordinary person with ordinary
ideas.
Bob Cooper
2010-07-08 17:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim beam
so ed, apart from being full of it, where is your "scrutiny" of your
employers failing to, ahem, "notice" that the billions of taxpayer
dollars used to keep them afloat are in fact being used to support
chinese jobs, not american? because that's where g.m. gets its
componentry. unlike toyota that not only assembles its vehicle here,
but does so with AMERICAN-SOURCED COMPONENTRY.
You don't make sense. I never saw this guy pimping GM. Think he's
mentioned Ford. They didn't get bailed out.
So who's paying him? The Anti-Toyota Mystery Car Association?
I don't agree with him, but you're just as nutty.
And nobody gives a shit what anybody says on usenet.
Reading your posts or his points out to most that it's mostly filled
with bullshit and bad judgments.
When they buy cars they either listen to family/friends or past
experience, or look at Consumer Reports.
jim beam
2010-07-08 15:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Pollard
Post by jim beam
Post by Larry Pollard
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:43:41 -0400, "C. E. White"
Post by C. E. White
For years Toyota was able to fly under the radar because they were a
relatively small player in the US market, mostly sold simplier cars that had
the bugs worked out in other markets, and were able to bury the details of
the defects in Japanese language reports in Japanese offices. Now that they
are one of the true "big three," introduce new design to the US market
concurrently with introduction in other markets, and have significant US
based engineering and manufacturing operations,. they are looking a whole
lot more like GM. Name a problem GM has had, and I'll bet Toyota as had it
also. Ask Toyota owners that suffered from sludged engines, defective
accelerator pedals, defective ball joints, rusted out frames, rollover prone
4Runners, blown head gaskets, disintegrating paint, etc, etc, about how
great Toyota Customer service is. Until recently it often required years of
fighting and threats from NHTSA before Toyota would even admit they had
problems. Maybe Toyota has changed but don't count on it.
Looks like it's your word against any organization who ever did any
sort of survey or scientific testing. Do you wake up every morning
and decide to be a douchebag or only most days?
ed didn't "decide" to be a douchebag - he gets paid to write that crap.
it's pathetic, but there's a whole world of shills out there that write
false product reviews, write fake letters to editors, and generally
"astroturf" anywhere where public opinion can be formed and money made.
i know this for fact because i've been approached by manufacturers to
do it for certain products too. and in the past, a firm i worked for
hired others to do it for stuff they were trying to position. it's just
a fact of life - another form of the world's oldest profession.
No doubt. Even our legal system encourages payola for "expert
witnesses". There is nothing that prevents or even deters a legal
team from hiring someone with good paper credentials to "find" this or
that.
But is this guy really a good enough writer to do this professionally?
I doubt it.
from what i can gather, astroturfers /need/ to be "second tier" - it
makes them look more "authentic". they just get a list of "talking
points" or questions they're supposed to answer, but the rest is left to
them.
Post by Larry Pollard
And also since the audience of Usenet has diminished
greatly over the years, it wouldn't really be an efficient use of time
or money for someone to pay him to troll here.
i think you under-rate the influence. usenet is the last bastion of
free speech and completely unsanitized - and thus people can say what
they really think without being moderated to follow a certain line. if
i were wanting to gauge true sentiment on a subject, i'd want to get the
whole picture, not the bits someone else has colored for me. and of
course, this is why we have astroturfers - to try to influence what
might be perceived as grass roots opinion.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Larry Pollard
2010-07-08 23:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim beam
i think you under-rate the influence. usenet is the last bastion of
free speech and completely unsanitized - and thus people can say what
they really think without being moderated to follow a certain line.
Well he could accomplish the same thing, more effectively, by setting
up some sort of blog that positions him as actually knowing something,
and if he crafts his search terms right he is going to end up with a
much larger audience than usenet. The problem is that so many
broadband providers just dropped it altogether in the US, so I don't
have stats handy but I bet the audience is something like 1/20th of
what it was in its peak.

Naturally, he is not about to try to post his crap on
www.clublexus.com or some other brand-specific forum. They wouldn't
ban him for speaking his mind as long as he wasn't picking fights, but
the moment he tried to spew the crap he spews here, those who actually
know a thing or two about the brand would rip him a new one.

There was a guy that actually tried something like this a few weeks
ago, claiming his Toyota (or Lexus) or whatever jutted forward and
ruined his garage door. After he was called on it (and unable to
produce even a simple picture of a damaged garage door next to the car
model in question), he just disappeared. Usenet used to be a little
more unforgiving to trolls like that, but again only has a fraction of
us old standbys left, and is not bringing new users in at all.
C. E. White
2010-07-12 17:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Pollard
Naturally, he is not about to try to post his crap on
www.clublexus.com or some other brand-specific forum. They wouldn't
ban him for speaking his mind as long as he wasn't picking fights, but
the moment he tried to spew the crap he spews here, those who actually
know a thing or two about the brand would rip him a new one.
I participate in some brand specific forums, but there are so many it is
hard to pick the right one. As for "crap" I post, I can't imagine it would
get me banned from any reasonable forum. Care to point out anything
particularly horrible I have posted. For sure I have opinions on Toyotas
that don't match up with some of the more loyal Toyota enthusiast that hang
out here. For instance, I think Toyotas are not particulalrly reliable or
particualrly trouble free. They are on the high side of average, but not so
special that they are worth spending thousand more for than for comparable
cars from other manufacturers. I also don't agree that Toyota has
particulary good Customer Service. This is my opinion based on years of
close association with Toyota owners and on my own reading of the various
NHTSA complaints against Toyotas. I do think Toyota has managed to create an
enviable brand image (maybe I should have said, Toyota used to have an
enviable brand image). This image is not based on fact, but rather on
perception. Neither of these opinions would keep me from purchasing a Toyota
should I decide a particualr model fits my wants / needs / budget. On
several occasions I have considered various Toyota models and even
recommended to my Mother that she purchase a Highlander (she did). At the
moment my immeadiate family circle includes 5 Toyotas (3 RAV4s, 1
Highlander, 1 4Runner), 4 Fords (Fusion, Mustang, F150, Ranger), a Mazda (a
3), and a Honda (Civic Si Coupe). My favorite vehicle is my 2007 Ford Fusion
and my least favorite is a 2006 Mustang (my Sons). I like my Mother's
Highlander a lot and don't care for the three RAV4 others in my circle own.
The Mazda is decent but boring (I can't find the Zoom-Zoom). My F150 is OK
for what it is. My Mother's old Ranger is just old and is OK. I don't drive
the SO's daughter's 4Runner or the SO's son's Honda so I don't have any
opinion on them except to note both have been reliable. In fact, none of our
current vehicles have had any significant problems. If I was buying a new
car today I am not sure what I would buy. Nothing really seems to interest
me. If forced to buy something new, it would probably be a new Fusion, or
maybe a Fiesta. If I was replacing the F150, I think it would have to be
another F150, although ideally I'd like something a little smaller (but with
a better cabin layout / room that a Frontier or Tacoma).

Ed
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