ES330 premium fuel

Post by Matthew
I own a 2005 ES330 with the infamous "transmission issue".
I have the most recent flash update and honestly do not find the car THAT
bad.
Yes...the lag is occasionally noticeable and inexcusable but I am dealing
with it...for now. (have the car for 3 months)
QUESTION IS: of the MANY posts I have read SOME state that higher octane
fuel will improve tranny performance NOTICEABLY.
Any comments on the reality or fallacy of this??
Matt

If you spring for the extra 2 or 3 bucks the next time you fill up, you
can find out for yourself, which is much better than taking someone
else's word for it.

Let us know what you conclude.

NYLexSC

2006-12-17 02:46:06 UTC

umm as far as i know the transmission is a closed system independent of
the combustion chamber, i dont see how gasoline quality would affect
the transmission.

--
NYLexSC
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Matthew

2006-12-17 04:34:43 UTC

NYLexSC; You are correct. "The transmission is a closed system independent
of the combustion chamber."
I'm just looking to see IF premium gas has had an effect on anyone who tried
it in thier car. I am planning on trying it myself but thought I'd throw the
question out to the newsgroup.
Matt

Post by NYLexSC
umm as far as i know the transmission is a closed system independent of
the combustion chamber, i dont see how gasoline quality would affect
the transmission.
--
NYLexSC
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170627

NYLexSC

2006-12-17 04:49:57 UTC

using an octane of fuel not recommended by your owners manual in most
cases will cause your engine to knock after some time despite the
current modern engines that can retard the timing to counter the
knocking, as well as decreased performance and decreased gas mileage
overall...but i don't believe there is any link between using different
gas and excess transmission wear.

greg

2006-12-17 06:24:07 UTC

Post by NYLexSC
using an octane of fuel not recommended by your owners manual in most
cases will cause your engine to knock after some time despite the
current modern engines that can retard the timing to counter the
knocking, as well as decreased performance and decreased gas mileage
overall...but i don't believe there is any link between using different
gas and excess transmission wear.

The ES330 also has VVTi which will increase engine performance and fuel
economy in response to the higher octane, which in turn also affects
how the transmission performs.

Ray O

2006-12-17 19:42:50 UTC

Post by NYLexSC
umm as far as i know the transmission is a closed system independent of
the combustion chamber, i dont see how gasoline quality would affect
the transmission.
--
NYLexSC

Although the transmission is mechanically independent of the combustion
chambers, they are linked electronically.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Matthew

2006-12-18 03:06:36 UTC

Ray O; just the person whose reply I was looking for...
So as per your statement...then it IS possible for premium gas to improve
the tranny lag/hesitation problem??
At almost $200/year more in cost, I want to be sure this works, especially
since one of the buying points for me was a premium car that used regular
gas.
Thanks...

Post by Ray O

Post by NYLexSC
umm as far as i know the transmission is a closed system independent of
the combustion chamber, i dont see how gasoline quality would affect
the transmission.
--
NYLexSC

Although the transmission is mechanically independent of the combustion
chambers, they are linked electronically.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray O

2006-12-18 04:30:10 UTC

Post by Matthew
Ray O; just the person whose reply I was looking for...
So as per your statement...then it IS possible for premium gas to improve
the tranny lag/hesitation problem??
At almost $200/year more in cost, I want to be sure this works, especially
since one of the buying points for me was a premium car that used regular
gas.
Thanks...

Engines with a higher compression ratio or with lots of advance on ignition
timing need premium fuel. Higher compression ratios and lots if ignition
timing advance generally produce more power than a similar engine with a
lower compression ratio or with less advanced ignition timing. Vehicles
with a distributor-less ignition system like your ES and a knock sensor can
electronically reduce the amount of ignition timing advance if it detects
knocking, which is how they are able to burn regular fuel instead of premium
fuel.

The savings from using less expensive regualar fuel are not as great as they
seem. For example, I usually use premium fuel in my LS 400, and get around
20 MPG around town. At $2.50 per gallon for premium, that is $2.50 per 20
miles, or 12.5 cents per mile for fuel. I have experimented with mid-grade
fuel and get around 18.5 MPG, and at $2.40 per gallon, it costs 13.3 cents
per mile for fuel. It seems counter-intuitive, but at least for my car, it
actually costs less to use premium fuel than mid-grade fuel.

I have not personally experienced the transmission lag that people have
complained about so I can only provide my guess about what is going on.
That guess is that the "learning" part of the transmission control program
places extra computational demands on the computer, and the delay is caused
by the computer trying to do all the calculations and then activate the
shift solenonids. If my guess is correct, then the reflash would probably
be an attempt to make the code more efficient or program more default modes
for the transmission under a wider number of conditions.

To answer your question as to whether it is possible for premium fuel to
improve (reduce) the transmission lag, I would guess that the answer is yes
for 2 reasons.

First, the transmission electronic control module (ECM) and engine ECM use
some of the same information like throttle position, engine RPM,
transmission output shaft RPM, engaged gear, torque converter status,
individual wheel RPM, and coolant temperature. If the engine is burning
premium fuel, the ignition timing would be closer to the default ignition
timing and so the engine ECM does not have to make adjustments for retarded
timing and the transmission ECM does not have to "wait" for results from the
engine ECM.

Second, using premium fuel will produce more power for a given throttle
position than with the use of lower octane fuel, and if the engine is
producing more power, the transmission will not have to decide whether to
downshift and take action.

Bottom line, I personally use premium fuel because it costs the same or
slightly less per mile to use, with the added benefit of a more responsive
engine.

I think it would be worth trying 2 or 3 consecutive tanks of premium fuel
and see if the transmission lag is reduced.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

njbok

2006-12-18 05:38:29 UTC

The ES trans "problem", that Lexus does not recognize as a problem, has been
addressed by Lexus TSBs, and the latest (At least I believe it's the latest
one) trans TSB has included a note specifying premium fuel should be used.

At my last service visit the Service Advisor told me that, and I doubted it.
He couldn't produce the TSB that day, and so I was virtually certain it was
BS.

I have, however, since seen the TSB, and it DOES state the requirement of
premium fuel. It's stated in a note on the TSB. I've yet to try several
successive tanks of premium to test it. I'm just so used to telling the guy
to give me "regular" over the years, It never occurs to me to say "super".

2006-12-18 07:09:17 UTC

I have a ES 330, 2005 year. It has the jerk and lag. After I bought the
car (new), I brought it back to the dealer for the jerk problem and they
told me to drive it for about 2000 or so miles and it should improve.
Something did seem to improve a bit, but I'm not sure if the car adjusted to
me, or I adjusted to the car. When I bought it, they told me it's OK to use
regular, so that's what I've been using. However, on a trip to Florida last
year, I tried two tankfuls of premium mostly highway driving. I noticed no
difference, and the mileage didn't seem to get any better (but wasn't bad -
about 27 to 29 mpg. On the highway, you don't get as much lag and jerk as
in slower city or suburban driving, so I really don't know if that improved
with premium. I will try premium then next few tankfuls and see, but I'm
not too hopeful. I took the car back to the dealer serveral months ago and
complain about the continuing jerk and lag condition. I asked that they
install the software update that is supposed to improve this condition
somewhat. They check the car and told me that it was installed before I
even took delivery of the car.

Frankly, it's not a terrible problem! If it was, I would have filed a Lemon
Law claim. However, at the same time, I don't appreciate the way Lexus has
handled it. They even told me that's the way the car is designed and it's
supposed to run like that. "It's set exactly to factory specs." I was
under the misconception that people paid extra for a Lexus mainly to avoid
these kind of problems. It's sort of disappointing to realize that even
with Lexus, you might not avoid those kind of problems. Frankly, my wife's
2004 4cyl. Camry runs smoother, without a jerk and lag, than my ES 330
(which is really a fancy and more expensive Camry).

In any event, I still have the car, and I'll give the premium another try.
I only have about 17,500 miles on it. I can afford to give it 3 tankfuls.
Hope it works.
Al

Post by njbok
The ES trans "problem", that Lexus does not recognize as a problem, has been
addressed by Lexus TSBs, and the latest (At least I believe it's the latest
one) trans TSB has included a note specifying premium fuel should be used.
At my last service visit the Service Advisor told me that, and I doubted it.
He couldn't produce the TSB that day, and so I was virtually certain it was
BS.
I have, however, since seen the TSB, and it DOES state the requirement of
premium fuel. It's stated in a note on the TSB. I've yet to try several
successive tanks of premium to test it. I'm just so used to telling the guy
to give me "regular" over the years, It never occurs to me to say "super".

Vinny

2006-12-18 12:06:31 UTC

I also owned a 2004 RX330 (which has the same platform as ES330,
Camry), I experimented with 87 Octane and 89 Octane. With 87, I noticed
that the responses was awful. With 89, I noticed significant
difference in driving, where the engine responses better with a slight
tap on the pedal and the throttle responses was awesome.

It did not noticed the same difference between 89 and 93, thus I am
going to stick with 89. Did no check mpg though.

V.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Al
I have a ES 330, 2005 year. It has the jerk and lag. After I bought the
car (new), I brought it back to the dealer for the jerk problem and they
told me to drive it for about 2000 or so miles and it should improve.
Something did seem to improve a bit, but I'm not sure if the car adjusted to
me, or I adjusted to the car. When I bought it, they told me it's OK to use
regular, so that's what I've been using. However, on a trip to Florida last
year, I tried two tankfuls of premium mostly highway driving. I noticed no
difference, and the mileage didn't seem to get any better (but wasn't bad -
about 27 to 29 mpg. On the highway, you don't get as much lag and jerk as
in slower city or suburban driving, so I really don't know if that improved
with premium. I will try premium then next few tankfuls and see, but I'm
not too hopeful. I took the car back to the dealer serveral months ago and
complain about the continuing jerk and lag condition. I asked that they
install the software update that is supposed to improve this condition
somewhat. They check the car and told me that it was installed before I
even took delivery of the car.
Frankly, it's not a terrible problem! If it was, I would have filed a Lemon
Law claim. However, at the same time, I don't appreciate the way Lexus has
handled it. They even told me that's the way the car is designed and it's
supposed to run like that. "It's set exactly to factory specs." I was
under the misconception that people paid extra for a Lexus mainly to avoid
these kind of problems. It's sort of disappointing to realize that even
with Lexus, you might not avoid those kind of problems. Frankly, my wife's
2004 4cyl. Camry runs smoother, without a jerk and lag, than my ES 330
(which is really a fancy and more expensive Camry).
In any event, I still have the car, and I'll give the premium another try.
I only have about 17,500 miles on it. I can afford to give it 3 tankfuls.
Hope it works.
Al

stu

2006-12-18 16:28:48 UTC

I truly doubt you could see any difference in using premium or regular
unless you are drag racing. Mileage is very slightly improved but not enough
to offset the additional cost. Do you floor it everytime you startup?
STU

Post by Vinny
I also owned a 2004 RX330 (which has the same platform as ES330,
Camry), I experimented with 87 Octane and 89 Octane. With 87, I noticed
that the responses was awful. With 89, I noticed significant
difference in driving, where the engine responses better with a slight
tap on the pedal and the throttle responses was awesome.
It did not noticed the same difference between 89 and 93, thus I am
going to stick with 89. Did no check mpg though.
V.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------

Post by njbok
The ES trans "problem", that Lexus does not recognize as a problem,

has

Post by njbok
been
addressed by Lexus TSBs, and the latest (At least I believe it's the latest
one) trans TSB has included a note specifying premium fuel should be used.
At my last service visit the Service Advisor told me that, and I

doubted

Post by njbok
it.
He couldn't produce the TSB that day, and so I was virtually certain

Post by njbok
was
BS.
I have, however, since seen the TSB, and it DOES state the requirement of
premium fuel. It's stated in a note on the TSB. I've yet to try several
successive tanks of premium to test it. I'm just so used to telling

the

Post by njbok
guy
to give me "regular" over the years, It never occurs to me to say "super".

mcbrue

2006-12-18 23:53:13 UTC

Go ahead - spring for the good stuff that costs a little more. When the
speeding dump truck is bearing down on you and you are trying to get
out of the way with that wonderfull hesitating tranny, it helps to know
YOU did your part! At least someone did if you burn the best! Remember
the Lexus motto ENGINEERING FOR SHOW, NOT GO!

Dana

2006-12-21 02:50:40 UTC

Post by mcbrue
Go ahead - spring for the good stuff that costs a little more. When the
speeding dump truck is bearing down on you and you are trying to get
out of the way with that wonderfull hesitating tranny, it helps to know
YOU did your part! At least someone did if you burn the best! Remember
the Lexus motto ENGINEERING FOR SHOW, NOT GO!

With all due respect , I don't understand that . I never thought Lexus was
that stylish a vehicle . I didn't think you bought a Lexus for good looks .

-Dana

NYLexSC

2006-12-21 04:42:02 UTC

Post by mcbrue

Post by mcbrue
Go ahead - spring for the good stuff that costs a little more. When

the

Post by mcbrue
speeding dump truck is bearing down on you and you are trying to get
out of the way with that wonderfull hesitating tranny, it helps to

know

Post by mcbrue
YOU did your part! At least someone did if you burn the best!

Remember

Post by mcbrue
the Lexus motto ENGINEERING FOR SHOW, NOT GO!

With all due respect , I don't understand that . I never thought Lexus was
that stylish a vehicle . I didn't think you bought a Lexus for good looks .
-Dana

kitzler

2006-12-21 16:30:12 UTC

Post by NYLexSC

Post by mcbrue
Go ahead - spring for the good stuff that costs a little more. When

the

It is NOWADAYS, the new GS and IS and LS are some of the most elegant
looking vehicles on the road. Lexus always built for QUALITY first and
foremost, performance and looks always came second to that.
--
NYLexSC
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Quality is not enough, GM's quality has improved a lot, but I shall
avoid GM and other domestic and some Asian (read Nissan) products,
because if you ever have a quality problem, having to cope with the
dealer to get it fixed is a nightmare. So you might say, I am for
quality, but without nightmares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

/Nick

mcbrue

2006-12-21 23:35:25 UTC

Engineering is for show, not go. For example, the reverse looking radar
to avoid collisions - only 4 sensors vs 6 on the front and a cheap
little display hidden on the central dash with a nearly silent beeper.
This is not well engineered for actual use. But it is there. So the
engieering shows it is there, but not usefull. Hence the "for show, not
go" designation. And I can quote a few more instances of that.

McPhallus

2006-12-26 04:40:38 UTC

If you hate your Lexus so much, why don't you just get rid of it?

Post by mcbrue
Engineering is for show, not go. For example, the reverse looking radar
to avoid collisions - only 4 sensors vs 6 on the front and a cheap
little display hidden on the central dash with a nearly silent beeper.
This is not well engineered for actual use. But it is there. So the
engieering shows it is there, but not usefull. Hence the "for show, not
go" designation. And I can quote a few more instances of that.

Matthew

2006-12-27 03:38:59 UTC

I concur...
I asked a sensible question, and I get mostly sensible and helpful
answers...and a few editorials.

Post by McPhallus
If you hate your Lexus so much, why don't you just get rid of it?

David Z

2006-12-27 23:28:30 UTC

Post by McPhallus
If you hate your Lexus so much, why don't you just get rid of it?

He's been asked that a lot. But he never answers.

The closest thing to an answer that he's come up with is nonsense like:

"This forum is NOT for saying bad nasty things about the perfect Lexus
cars !!!! Well ... that is what some people say. I think it should be a
forum for discussing the many shortcomings of the Lexus vehicles as well
as their good points."

Yeah, right. As if no one else here talks about the shortcomings of
their Lexi.

He's just our resident whiney moron. That's all.

He can't get it through his thick head that the purpose of a group like
this is to answer each others' questions.

He thinks the primary purpose of the group is to whine. Perhaps he's
too cheap or lazy to get a therapist.

Post by McPhallus

m***@dontspam.me

2006-12-28 00:11:23 UTC