Don't Blame Floor Mats for Toyota (Lexus) Runaways

[john]

Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.

Alberto's Camry had no floor mat on the driver's side, the lawyers
said in the lawsuit.

Federal regulators and Toyota Motor Corp. are discussing whether the
automaker needs to fix gas pedals or floor pans in millions of
recalled vehicles instead of blaming floor mats, which the automaker
had maintained was the source of unintended acceleration cases.

Full article at:
http://www.freep.com/article/20091118/BUSINESS01/911180370/Toyota-looking-beyond-the-mats

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by john
Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.

Wait, wait.... this is a GM retiree who owns a Toyota?
I don't know WHAT that says but it sure doesn't sound good for the
US auto industry.
--scott

[Vic Smith]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by john
Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.

Wait, wait.... this is a GM retiree who owns a Toyota?
I don't know WHAT that says but it sure doesn't sound good for the
US auto industry.

The "poetic justice" part didn't do too well for her either.
Karma with a vengeance.

--Vic

[C. E. White]

Post by john
Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.

How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.

Ed

Post by john
Alberto's Camry had no floor mat on the driver's side, the lawyers
said in the lawsuit.
Federal regulators and Toyota Motor Corp. are discussing whether the
automaker needs to fix gas pedals or floor pans in millions of
recalled vehicles instead of blaming floor mats, which the automaker
had maintained was the source of unintended acceleration cases.
http://www.freep.com/article/20091118/BUSINESS01/911180370/Toyota-looking-beyond-the-mats

[jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@,net>]

Post by C. E. White

Post by john
Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.

How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.

I would think it would be fairly easy to tell if the pads and rotors had
been heated beyond the point where they no longer can stop the vehicle.
This is something that has been observed in vehicles (usually trucks)
that have brake failure on long steep downhill grades. If the rotors
have turned blue I'd say that is pretty good evidence the brakes were
applied vigorously and desperately.
-jim

Post by C. E. White
Ed

Post by john
Alberto's Camry had no floor mat on the driver's side, the lawyers
said in the lawsuit.
Federal regulators and Toyota Motor Corp. are discussing whether the
automaker needs to fix gas pedals or floor pans in millions of
recalled vehicles instead of blaming floor mats, which the automaker
had maintained was the source of unintended acceleration cases.
http://www.freep.com/article/20091118/BUSINESS01/911180370/Toyota-looking-beyond-the-mats

[C. E. White]

Post by jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@,net>

Post by C. E. White

Post by john
Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint,
died
in
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.

How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her
brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal
confusion
to me.

I would think it would be fairly easy to tell if the pads and rotors had
been heated beyond the point where they no longer can stop the
vehicle.
This is something that has been observed in vehicles (usually
trucks)
that have brake failure on long steep downhill grades. If the rotors
have turned blue I'd say that is pretty good evidence the brakes were
applied vigorously and desperately.
-jim

The problem is, she may have also been pressing the accelerator pedal
at the same time. It is less likely with a lady becasue they generally
have smaller feet, but it still happens.

And even if the rotors show signs of having been over heated, how do
you tell when this happened?

Ed

[jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@,net>]

Post by C. E. White
The problem is, she may have also been pressing the accelerator pedal
at the same time. It is less likely with a lady becasue they generally
have smaller feet, but it still happens.

The question I responded to was:

How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes

Post by C. E. White
And even if the rotors show signs of having been over heated, how do
you tell when this happened?

Well it would have happened the last time the car was driven if the wear
surface is blue. If you let the rotors cool and use the brakes normally
it will fairly quickly wear off that bluish patina and return the color
back to a more normal appearance.

-jim

[Don Stauffer]

Post by C. E. White
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.
Ed

I belong to a Prius discussion group, and a couple of members have had
strong acceleration when using the resume button on their cruise
control. They believe the cruise control may be the problem on several
models of Toyota. After using the resume button the cruise control held
the accelerator way open well after the car reached the previously set
speed. The people reporting this were able to turn off the cruise
control easily enough, and the brakes slowed the car while they were
turning it off.

[in2dadark]

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by C. E. White
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.
Ed

I belong to a Prius discussion group, and a couple of members have had
strong acceleration when using the resume button on their cruise
control.  They believe the cruise control may be the problem on several
models of Toyota.  After using the resume button the cruise control held
the accelerator way open well after the car reached the previously set
speed.  The people reporting this were able to turn off the cruise
control easily enough, and the brakes slowed the car while they were
turning it off.

I think this could very well be the case. My 2001 camry sometimes
'over does it' when I put it on cruise. I'm not 77 and I haven't been
dealing with GM aggravation all my life so I know what to do.. But it
does get carried away sometimes. She was 77. The car decided it was
her time to go..

[ben91932]

Post by C. E. White
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.
Ed

IIRC, obd2 can store values like brake pressure....

[Ray O]

Post by ben91932

Post by C. E. White
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.
Ed

IIRC, obd2 can store values like brake pressure....

As Jeff Strickland posted, some vehicles have a separate recording device
that is separate from OBD II. OBD II does not store pedal pressure as most
vehicles do not have a pedal pressure sensor.

BTW, there is another indicator besides discolored brake rotors and black
boxes as to whether the brakes were applied at the time of impact.

[in2dadark]

Post by Ray O

Post by ben91932

Post by C. E. White
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.
Ed

IIRC, obd2 can store values like brake pressure....

As Jeff Strickland posted, some vehicles have a separate recording device
that is separate from OBD II.  OBD II does not store pedal pressure as most
vehicles do not have a pedal pressure sensor.
BTW, there is another indicator besides discolored brake rotors and black
boxes as to whether the brakes were applied at the time of impact.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

And that would be...?

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by in2dadark

Post by Ray O

Post by ben91932

Post by C. E. White
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal
confusion to me.
Ed

IIRC, obd2 can store values like brake pressure....

As Jeff Strickland posted, some vehicles have a separate recording
device that is separate from OBD II.  OBD II does not store pedal
pressure as most vehicles do not have a pedal pressure sensor.
BTW, there is another indicator besides discolored brake rotors and
black boxes as to whether the brakes were applied at the time of impact.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

And that would be...?

I would think skid marks. If you apply the brakes on a front wheel drive
car, even though the ABS would kick in, the rears would hop and make a
dotted line along the roadway.

However, this might have been an AWD Lexus, and in this case the engine's
HP might overcome the brakes...?

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by in2dadark

Post by Ray O
BTW, there is another indicator besides discolored brake rotors and black
boxes as to whether the brakes were applied at the time of impact.

And that would be...?

Most common one is the condition of the brake light bulb filaments. If
they broke under impact while the light was illuminated, there will be
metal sputtered on the inside the envelope and the edges of the filament
break will be melted. If they broke under impact while the light was
cold, it will be a clean break with no sputtered metal.
--scott

[Ray O]

Post by Ray O

Post by ben91932

Post by C. E. White
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.
Ed

IIRC, obd2 can store values like brake pressure....

As Jeff Strickland posted, some vehicles have a separate recording device
that is separate from OBD II. OBD II does not store pedal pressure as most
vehicles do not have a pedal pressure sensor.
BTW, there is another indicator besides discolored brake rotors and black
boxes as to whether the brakes were applied at the time of impact.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

And that would be...?

********

As Scott Dorsey mentioned, the brake light bulbs can give an indication of
whether or not the lights were illuminated at the time of impact.

I can't confirm whether or not Scott's explanation if correct or not, but it
sounds plausible.

We used to have to check out vehicles where the operator claimed that a
defect in the vehicle caused an accident, and I noticed that police
technicians often removed the brake light bulbs or tail light assemblies,
and when I asked the technician why he was removing the bulbs, he said that
the brake light bulbs tell a story.

[hls]

Post by Ray O
As Scott Dorsey mentioned, the brake light bulbs can give an indication of
whether or not the lights were illuminated at the time of impact.
I can't confirm whether or not Scott's explanation if correct or not, but
it sounds plausible.
We used to have to check out vehicles where the operator claimed that a
defect in the vehicle caused an accident, and I noticed that police
technicians often removed the brake light bulbs or tail light assemblies,
and when I asked the technician why he was removing the bulbs, he said
that the brake light bulbs tell a story.
--
Ray O

I can reasonably accept that the carpets caused some of the problems, or
that in
some cases a driver had his or her foot on both pedals, but Toyota needs to
slay this
dragon once and for all.

I have two newish Toyotas, and neither one of them has ever misbehaved or
given me
anything at all to complain about.

I am sure that if this happened to me, I COULD get the car stopped. I am
not so sure
about my wife, even though we have gone through the drill.

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by john
Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.

How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes if
she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion to me.
Ed

Automobiles, particularly the high-end models, have a black box in them.
They can look at the data stored in the box to see what was happening before
the crash -- sorta like a black box in an airplane.

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/accidents/auto_black_boxes.html
http://www.ecoworld.com/technology/automobile-black-box.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141048,00.html

[Desertphile]

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:00:30 -0800 (PST), john

Post by john
Alberto's Camry had no floor mat on the driver's side, the lawyers
said in the lawsuit.

That does not mean the vehicle did not have a floor mat on the
driver's side at the time just preceeding the crash.

[Gordo's Psychiatrist]

There you go again. Another negative report about Toyota. You jealous
that you can't afford to purchase a Toyota or Lexus? You still stuck with
that 10 year old Kia with 235,000 miles on it?

Post by john
Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.
Alberto's Camry had no floor mat on the driver's side, the lawyers
said in the lawsuit.
Federal regulators and Toyota Motor Corp. are discussing whether the
automaker needs to fix gas pedals or floor pans in millions of
recalled vehicles instead of blaming floor mats, which the automaker
had maintained was the source of unintended acceleration cases.
http://www.freep.com/article/20091118/BUSINESS01/911180370/Toyota-looking-beyond-the-mats