Toyota Doesn't Know How to Fix GX460's Stability Control Yet

[john]

"The Japanese automaker also said it had been able to duplicate a flaw
in the skid control system on new Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicles,
but said it had not yet settled on exactly how to fix the problem.

The automaker stopped selling the Lexus GX460, a SUV sold by Toyota’s
luxury brand, earlier this week after Consumer Reports deemed the
truck unsafe to drive because its skid controls allowed the vehicle to
veer to the side before regaining control in certain maneuvers.

http://www.freep.com/article/20100416/BUSINESS01/4160356/1331/business01/Toyota-solution-may-come-in-summer

[ransley]

Post by john
"The Japanese automaker also said it had been able to duplicate a flaw
in the skid control system on new Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicles,
but said it had not yet settled on exactly how to fix the problem.
The automaker stopped selling the Lexus GX460, a SUV sold by Toyota’s
luxury brand, earlier this week after Consumer Reports deemed the
truck unsafe to drive because its skid controls allowed the vehicle to
veer to the side before regaining control in certain maneuvers.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100416/BUSINESS01/4160356/1331/busines...

The real point of all this is Toyota does their own tests and knew and
ignored it. The 4 runner is the same chassis but its fine so you dont
need an Einstein to know the fix, especialy if you are the one that
built the dam truck. They know how to fix it, they is a Lyin agaiiin.

[Bill]

Post by john
"The Japanese automaker also said it had been able to duplicate a flaw
in the skid control system on new Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicles,
but said it had not yet settled on exactly how to fix the problem.

This could be a problem with the Asian culture or language.

For one, I think it is rude in that culture to point out that something is
wrong? To confront someone and say they are not correct, etc. To tell
someone their product has faults. No problem doing this in America...

Then due to the complexity of languages there, I think it is common for
people to never fully understand everything in their languages. I think they
tend to be passive if they don't understand something someone says - do
nothing. In America we would say "What do you mean? Please explain!"

As a result of this (or something else?), they have a weakness in the
software and quality control areas. Things will mostly work to the
specifications, but will not work exactly right.

For example I bought a USB to Serial adapter made in Asia. It mostly worked
ok, but could not send or receive a BREAK signal! This would be buried deep
in the English language technical specifications. Someone designing this
product probably did not understand the translation, so did nothing...

Then there is a WALL between America and Asia. I can't exactly call them up
or send them an email and explain what is wrong with their product
technically. They would not understand what I was talking about. I have
tried this in the past and they were defensive. Could not understand what I
was saying. So I don't even try anymore.

[me]

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 06:21:31 -0700, "Bill"

Post by Bill
This could be a problem with the Asian culture or language.
For one, I think it is rude in that culture to point out that something is
wrong? To confront someone and say they are not correct, etc. To tell
someone their product has faults. No problem doing this in America...
Then due to the complexity of languages there, I think it is common for
people to never fully understand everything in their languages. I think they
tend to be passive if they don't understand something someone says - do
nothing. In America we would say "What do you mean? Please explain!"

You're in the ballpark, but I don't know that you are hitting the
nail. Toyota REFUSES to admit to problems, even when they are glaring
and obvious and have serious implications. That may be somewhat
cultural, but they know enough about business that they realize the
business implications of denial, or acknowledgement, both culturally
and in a business sense.

I had a problem with my Toyota back in 1986 while still under factory
warranty. It was a relatively small problem but could result in a car
fire. It was clearly a design issue and likely affecting every single
Toyota they'd made.

Toyota refused to acknowledge that it was their fault (Asian?) and
quickly retreated to repeatedly reading me a statement denying any
responsibility from their lawyers (Business!!!). I was shocked at how
fast my request to get reimbursed to the dealer became a corporate
legal issue. It became obvious that they did not want to admit to the
problem because of the huge liability from the fires (accidents &
death) and of course the cost of retrofitting all those cars at if
they did. So, they refused my warranty claim. That was the last
Toyota I bought.

Same scenario lately, with every Toyota problem: The sludge issue, the
truck frame problem, the sudden acceleration problem.

Back years ago I'd tell people my story and they'd look at me like
"you must be nuts, Toyota has the utmost quality and support!". He who
laughs last, laughs best.

[jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@,net>]

Post by me
I had a problem with my Toyota back in 1986 while still under factory
warranty. It was a relatively small problem but could result in a car
fire. It was clearly a design issue and likely affecting every single
Toyota they'd made.

You know. the above statement makes you look like a complete ignoramus
who has lost all touch with reality. In other words a typical usenet
poster.

Let's examine the statement: You have an opinion about an automobile
defect. Obviously there are also numerous automobile engineers and
safety experts with their own opinions that do not agree with yours. But
yet in spite of these facts that should be obvious to anyone reading,
you clearly expect that everyone who reads your statement will
automatically agree with your opinion without even knowing what exactly
that opinion is. Did it even cross your mind that you just leaped off a
huge cliff and now you have nothing but 1000's of feet of empty space
underneath you?

-jim

[me]

Post by jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@,net>
Let's examine the statement: You have an opinion about an automobile
defect. Obviously there are also numerous automobile engineers and
safety experts with their own opinions that do not agree with yours. But
yet in spite of these facts that should be obvious to anyone reading,
you clearly expect that everyone who reads your statement will
automatically agree with your opinion without even knowing what exactly
that opinion is. Did it even cross your mind that you just leaped off a
huge cliff and now you have nothing but 1000's of feet of empty space
underneath you?
-jim

I don't give a half a shit if a know-it-all douchebag like you agrees
with me.

[dsi1]

Post by me
I had a problem with my Toyota back in 1986 while still under factory
warranty. It was a relatively small problem but could result in a car
fire. It was clearly a design issue and likely affecting every single
Toyota they'd made.

What was the problem? Is there a reason why you are not saying what it
is? I'd sure want to know. Thanks.

[me]

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 09:55:00 -1000, dsi1

Post by dsi1

Post by me
I had a problem with my Toyota back in 1986 while still under factory
warranty. It was a relatively small problem but could result in a car
fire. It was clearly a design issue and likely affecting every single
Toyota they'd made.

What was the problem? Is there a reason why you are not saying what it
is? I'd sure want to know. Thanks.

The problem was three fold: First, the air intake ducts under the cowl
were on the bottom, not rear (firewall) or ducted from above as they
are on better designed cars. That allows (and almost begs for) foreign
matter such as pine needles to be pulled into the duct system. Second,
the fan then chops that material and sends it along to the third
problem: the heating fan resistors were exposed wound wire type that
literally glowed cherry red when used to keep the fan on lower speeds
(unlike properly designed systems in other vehicles where they are
encased in an aluminum cover/heatsink).

The result was that the bottom draft duct design allowed the material
to be pulled in, the fan then chopped it up and packed it against the
resistors, then the resistors ignited it. Fire would result, with the
fan literally fanning the flames.

The ductwork problem is not easily rectified in the field, it's a
engineering issue. However, the problem could have been repaired
simply by encasing the resistors in an aluminum heatsink/cover that
would have prevented ignition.

[dsi1]

Post by me
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 09:55:00 -1000, dsi1

Post by dsi1

Post by me
I had a problem with my Toyota back in 1986 while still under factory
warranty. It was a relatively small problem but could result in a car
fire. It was clearly a design issue and likely affecting every single
Toyota they'd made.

What was the problem? Is there a reason why you are not saying what it
is? I'd sure want to know. Thanks.

The problem was three fold: First, the air intake ducts under the cowl
were on the bottom, not rear (firewall) or ducted from above as they
are on better designed cars. That allows (and almost begs for) foreign
matter such as pine needles to be pulled into the duct system. Second,
the fan then chops that material and sends it along to the third
problem: the heating fan resistors were exposed wound wire type that
literally glowed cherry red when used to keep the fan on lower speeds
(unlike properly designed systems in other vehicles where they are
encased in an aluminum cover/heatsink).
The result was that the bottom draft duct design allowed the material
to be pulled in, the fan then chopped it up and packed it against the
resistors, then the resistors ignited it. Fire would result, with the
fan literally fanning the flames.
The ductwork problem is not easily rectified in the field, it's a
engineering issue. However, the problem could have been repaired
simply by encasing the resistors in an aluminum heatsink/cover that
would have prevented ignition.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

[me]

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

[David Z]

Post by me

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

What do you own/drive now?

[David Z]

Post by David Z

Post by me

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

What do you own/drive now?

Well? By your own standard, your whine doesn't hold water unless you can
name a car brand that does better by its customers. What do you drive/own?

[dsi1]

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by me

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

What do you own/drive now?

Well? By your own standard, your whine doesn't hold water unless you can
name a car brand that does better by its customers. What do you drive/own?

My guess is that Hyundai is pretty good although that's just my initial
impression after owning a used one for a couple of months. Time will
tell. They're gonna replace the evaporator core in my 2006 Sonata under
the 50K bumper to bumper warranty and I'm the 3rd owner. Thank God!

[David Z]

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by me

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

What do you own/drive now?

Well? By your own standard, your whine doesn't hold water unless you can
name a car brand that does better by its customers. What do you drive/own?

The silence speaks volumes. The guy probably bought another Toyota and now
is embarrassed to admit it.

[E. Meyer]

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by me

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

What do you own/drive now?

Well? By your own standard, your whine doesn't hold water unless you can
name a car brand that does better by its customers. What do you drive/own?

The silence speaks volumes. The guy probably bought another Toyota and now
is embarrassed to admit it.

More likely he either dropped you in his kill file and never saw it, or just
got tired of the playful banter and went looking for a serious car forum.

[me]

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by me

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

What do you own/drive now?

Well? By your own standard, your whine doesn't hold water unless you can
name a car brand that does better by its customers. What do you drive/own?

The silence speaks volumes. The guy probably bought another Toyota and now
is embarrassed to admit it.

You didn't major in logic, did you? The fact that Toyota has a long
history of avoiding major warranty payouts; the fact that I personally
experienced that back in the 1980s; and the fact that they are now
seeing their long term cultural (corporate and Asian) problems come
home to roost are not impacted in any way by what vehicle I drive now.

Your only reason for asking the question was an cheap attempt to point
a "yours too" finger at me. Even if you were able to do that, it would
not change the history and current status of Toyota.

[David Z]

Post by me

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by me

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

What do you own/drive now?

Well? By your own standard, your whine doesn't hold water unless you can
name a car brand that does better by its customers. What do you drive/own?

The silence speaks volumes. The guy probably bought another Toyota and now
is embarrassed to admit it.

You didn't major in logic, did you? The fact that Toyota has a long
history of avoiding major warranty payouts; the fact that I personally
experienced that back in the 1980s; and the fact that they are now
seeing their long term cultural (corporate and Asian) problems come
home to roost are not impacted in any way by what vehicle I drive now.
Your only reason for asking the question was an cheap attempt to point
a "yours too" finger at me. Even if you were able to do that, it would
not change the history and current status of Toyota.

You didn't major in logic, did you? The question remains, compared to what?

Hypothetically, I can complain about the best product on the market all day.
It's moot. At the end of the day, a consumer as to choose between products
A, B, C, D, etc. (Is that logical enough for ya?)

[David Z]

Post by David Z

Post by me

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by David Z

Post by me

Post by dsi1
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check this out when I see an 86 Toyota.

You'll have to, because I certainly won't be... that was the third
Toyota I owned, but the last. So, I don't know when they moved to a
better design like other manufacturers were using. Not that other
manufacturers like Nissan, Honda, etc haven't had their issues too,
and American history on engineering and defects is sometimes quite the
hoot. But, I didn't need to be jerked around again by corporate
attorneys when my car needed a simple $300 warranty repair due to bad
design.

What do you own/drive now?

Well? By your own standard, your whine doesn't hold water unless you can
name a car brand that does better by its customers. What do you drive/own?

The silence speaks volumes. The guy probably bought another Toyota and now
is embarrassed to admit it.

You didn't major in logic, did you? The fact that Toyota has a long
history of avoiding major warranty payouts; the fact that I personally
experienced that back in the 1980s; and the fact that they are now
seeing their long term cultural (corporate and Asian) problems come
home to roost are not impacted in any way by what vehicle I drive now.
Your only reason for asking the question was an cheap attempt to point
a "yours too" finger at me. Even if you were able to do that, it would
not change the history and current status of Toyota.

You didn't major in logic, did you? The question remains, compared to what?
Hypothetically, I can complain about the best product on the market all
day. It's moot. At the end of the day, a consumer has to choose between
products A, B, C, D, etc. (Is that logical enough for ya?)

Repeated silence speaks even more volumes. Like I said before, he probably
bought another Toyota and now is embarrassed to admit it.

[chuckcar]

Post by me
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 09:55:00 -1000, dsi1

Post by dsi1

Post by me
I had a problem with my Toyota back in 1986 while still under
factory warranty. It was a relatively small problem but could result
in a car fire. It was clearly a design issue and likely affecting
every single Toyota they'd made.

What was the problem? Is there a reason why you are not saying what it
is? I'd sure want to know. Thanks.

The problem was three fold: First, the air intake ducts under the cowl
were on the bottom, not rear (firewall) or ducted from above as they
are on better designed cars. That allows (and almost begs for) foreign
matter such as pine needles to be pulled into the duct system. Second,
the fan then chops that material and sends it along to the third
problem: the heating fan resistors were exposed wound wire type that
literally glowed cherry red when used to keep the fan on lower speeds
(unlike properly designed systems in other vehicles where they are
encased in an aluminum cover/heatsink).
The result was that the bottom draft duct design allowed the material
to be pulled in, the fan then chopped it up and packed it against the
resistors, then the resistors ignited it. Fire would result, with the
fan literally fanning the flames.
The ductwork problem is not easily rectified in the field, it's a
engineering issue. However, the problem could have been repaired
simply by encasing the resistors in an aluminum heatsink/cover that
would have prevented ignition.

Well, you don't get massive fuel economy for nothing *something* has to
burn. I suppose your car didn't have a radiator either?

[hls]

Post by me
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 06:21:31 -0700, "Bill"

Post by Bill
This could be a problem with the Asian culture or language.
For one, I think it is rude in that culture to point out that something is
wrong? To confront someone and say they are not correct, etc. To tell
someone their product has faults. No problem doing this in America...
Then due to the complexity of languages there, I think it is common for
people to never fully understand everything in their languages. I think they
tend to be passive if they don't understand something someone says - do
nothing. In America we would say "What do you mean? Please explain!"

You're in the ballpark, but I don't know that you are hitting the
nail. Toyota REFUSES to admit to problems, even when they are glaring
and obvious and have serious implications.

In this part of the country, you would be known as a "turdhead".

Companies make mistakes.. What really matters is how they deal
with the mistake after it occurs.

If it is a GM mistake, it is normally ignored.

If Toyota makes a mistake, a "turdhead" normally tries to make it
more than it is.

My cars have been considered, even though there was NEVER any
instance of a problem, and they have been updated.

No problem at all.

Except to a "turdhead".

[me]

Post by hls
In this part of the country, you would be known as a "turdhead".
Companies make mistakes.. What really matters is how they deal
with the mistake after it occurs.

And Toyota's policy is to ignore it, deny it, and cover it up.

Post by hls
If it is a GM mistake, it is normally ignored.
If Toyota makes a mistake, a "turdhead" normally tries to make it
more than it is.

Really? "more than it is" ?

So when Toyota denied that sludge was a problem for years, that was
OK? Then they claimed that it only happened to cars that had not had
regular oil changes and that was OK with you - even though their claim
was PROVED wrong when people who had documented oil changes showed up
with the problem. Then, despite the fact that it had been PROVED that
the problem occurred even WITH regular oil changes, Toyota refused to
correct the problem unless the customer could prove in written form
that they had had the regular oil changes that didn't prevent the
problem.

How about the acceleration debacle? We have Toyota repeatedly denying
that the problem existed. We have the internal memos where they worked
the duck, dodge, and hide scenario at the senior executive level. Then
we have their simplistic "it's the floor mats" solution, followed by
the simplistic "sticky accelerator" solution. And that's OK with you
too? I think the 54 dead people and their families might disagree.

Speaking of shitheads, you take the cake for an inability to think
(likely because you head is full of shit, not brain matter).

[Michael]

Post by me
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 06:21:31 -0700, "Bill"

Post by Bill
This could be a problem with the Asian culture or language.
For one, I think it is rude in that culture to point out that something is
wrong? To confront someone and say they are not correct, etc. To tell
someone their product has faults. No problem doing this in America...
Then due to the complexity of languages there, I think it is common for
people to never fully understand everything in their languages. I think they
tend to be passive if they don't understand something someone says - do
nothing. In America we would say "What do you mean? Please explain!"

You're in the ballpark, but I don't know that you are hitting the
nail. Toyota REFUSES to admit to problems, even when they are glaring
and obvious and have serious implications. That may be somewhat
cultural, but they know enough about business that they realize the
business implications of denial, or acknowledgement, both culturally
and in a business sense.
I had a problem with my Toyota back in 1986 while still under factory
warranty. It was a relatively small problem but could result in a car
fire. It was clearly a design issue and likely affecting every single
Toyota they'd made.

What was the problem? How did you fix it?

Michael

[me]

On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 13:21:47 -0700 (PDT), Michael

Post by Michael

Post by me
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 06:21:31 -0700, "Bill"

Post by Bill
This could be a problem with the Asian culture or language.
For one, I think it is rude in that culture to point out that something is
wrong? To confront someone and say they are not correct, etc. To tell
someone their product has faults. No problem doing this in America...
Then due to the complexity of languages there, I think it is common for
people to never fully understand everything in their languages. I think they
tend to be passive if they don't understand something someone says - do
nothing. In America we would say "What do you mean? Please explain!"

You're in the ballpark, but I don't know that you are hitting the
nail. Toyota REFUSES to admit to problems, even when they are glaring
and obvious and have serious implications. That may be somewhat
cultural, but they know enough about business that they realize the
business implications of denial, or acknowledgement, both culturally
and in a business sense.
I had a problem with my Toyota back in 1986 while still under factory
warranty. It was a relatively small problem but could result in a car
fire. It was clearly a design issue and likely affecting every single
Toyota they'd made.

What was the problem? How did you fix it?
Michael

Posted earlier in the thread. There was no design fix I could
implement, I could only replace the burned heater box. The real fix
was that I sold the car a little later, and I didn't buy another
Toyota.

[hls]

"john" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:23ce9883-b019-497c-8f41-***@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
"The Japanese automaker also said it had been able to duplicate a flaw
in the skid control system on new Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicles,
but said it had not yet settled on exactly how to fix the problem.


Your subject line is a misleading (almost certainly your aim).

They have not decided how to implement the fix, it is not that they
dont know how to do it. Two very different things...

[chuckcar]

Post by john
"The Japanese automaker also said it had been able to duplicate a flaw
in the skid control system on new Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicles,
but said it had not yet settled on exactly how to fix the problem.
The automaker stopped selling the Lexus GX460, a SUV sold by Toyota’s
luxury brand, earlier this week after Consumer Reports deemed the
truck unsafe to drive because its skid controls allowed the vehicle to
veer to the side before regaining control in certain maneuvers.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100416/BUSINESS01/4160356/1331/business0
1/Toyota-solution-may-come-in-summer

I wasn't aware it wasn't working properly in the first place. I've seen
a skid from hell that by any rights should have rolled the thing, but
not even a tire cocked.

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Post by john
"The Japanese automaker also said it had been able to duplicate a flaw
in the skid control system on new Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicles,
but said it had not yet settled on exactly how to fix the problem.

Big sticker on the dash that reads "THIS IS AN SUV. NOT A SPORTS CAR. DRIVE
ACCORDINGLY".