Discussion:
1990 LS400 Transmission Fluid Change
(too old to reply)
Jerohm
2008-10-30 22:05:07 UTC
Permalink
a while back, I remember reading that RATHER than a flush, LS400 owners
should politely ask for ONLY a drain and refill ... due to the possibility
of causing more damage than it is worth. Urban myth or any truth? Thanks
for any insight
j
Ray O
2008-10-30 22:13:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerohm
a while back, I remember reading that RATHER than a flush, LS400 owners
should politely ask for ONLY a drain and refill ... due to the possibility
of causing more damage than it is worth. Urban myth or any truth? Thanks
for any insight
j
In my experience, if the automatic transmission has been flushed regularly
since new, like every 30,000 miles, then it usually doesn't hurt to flush at
higher mileages. Of course, if the ATF is drained and refilled every 30,000
to 40,000 miles, then a flush is not necessary.

If the first time the transmission is flushed is at higher mileage, then
I've seen flushes cause problems, usually a few months after the flush.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
Jerohm
2008-10-31 13:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Well thanks as always Ray! Now lets SUPPOSE you really only know the
history of the car for the last 40K, in which time you KNOW there hasn't
been any transmission maintenance ... mainly because there is no signs of
problems. The fluid is pinkish red ... with no funny smell, but you can
observe tiny black "specs" in the fluid if you wipe down the dip stick.
What would be YOUR recommendation @ 225K. I am not really too keen on any
surprises 6 months down the road.

oh yeah, BOO!
Post by Ray O
Post by Jerohm
a while back, I remember reading that RATHER than a flush, LS400 owners
should politely ask for ONLY a drain and refill ... due to the possibility
of causing more damage than it is worth. Urban myth or any truth? Thanks
for any insight
j
In my experience, if the automatic transmission has been flushed regularly
since new, like every 30,000 miles, then it usually doesn't hurt to flush
at higher mileages. Of course, if the ATF is drained and refilled every
30,000 to 40,000 miles, then a flush is not necessary.
If the first time the transmission is flushed is at higher mileage, then
I've seen flushes cause problems, usually a few months after the flush.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
Ray O
2008-10-31 16:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerohm
Well thanks as always Ray! Now lets SUPPOSE you really only know the
history of the car for the last 40K, in which time you KNOW there hasn't
been any transmission maintenance ... mainly because there is no signs of
problems. The fluid is pinkish red ... with no funny smell, but you can
observe tiny black "specs" in the fluid if you wipe down the dip stick.
surprises 6 months down the road.
oh yeah, BOO!
Pinkish-red is very good. If that were my car, I would just drain and
refill the transmission fluid now and do the same thing again at the next
oil change. A simple do-it-yourself drain and refill is relatively
inexpensive and doesn't involve dropping the transmission pan.

BOO back at ya!
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
mcbrue
2008-11-01 15:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Eeeeeeeeek! Hey - its not nice to scare a guy like that with all that
yelling of Boo! even if it is Halloween.
Jerohm
2008-11-01 19:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Ray ... again. Last question. I had the car in the shop to fix a
radiator leak, that was replaced new in Mar 2008. The old radiator
(pre-03/2008) wasn't leaking but WAS obviously shot ... just waiting to
fail. This trip was warranty work, and they claimed a defective
radiator/replaced. The shop owner/manager is the one that said my ATF was
dirty and required a flush. I don't do ALL my own work, but I do watch
things pretty carefully... at least fluid levels and condition. As I FIRST
stated, from the Tranny dipstick, the ATF looked and smelled pretty good ...
to me! ( Loading Image... ). Is there something ELSE
he could have detected while replacing the radiator, or can I be relatively
confident with my dipstick evaluation??
J
Post by Ray O
Post by Jerohm
Well thanks as always Ray! Now lets SUPPOSE you really only know the
history of the car for the last 40K, in which time you KNOW there hasn't
been any transmission maintenance ... mainly because there is no signs of
problems. The fluid is pinkish red ... with no funny smell, but you can
observe tiny black "specs" in the fluid if you wipe down the dip stick.
any surprises 6 months down the road.
oh yeah, BOO!
Pinkish-red is very good. If that were my car, I would just drain and
refill the transmission fluid now and do the same thing again at the next
oil change. A simple do-it-yourself drain and refill is relatively
inexpensive and doesn't involve dropping the transmission pan.
BOO back at ya!
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
Ray O
2008-11-01 23:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerohm
Thanks Ray ... again. Last question. I had the car in the shop to fix a
radiator leak, that was replaced new in Mar 2008. The old radiator
(pre-03/2008) wasn't leaking but WAS obviously shot ... just waiting to
fail. This trip was warranty work, and they claimed a defective
radiator/replaced. The shop owner/manager is the one that said my ATF was
dirty and required a flush. I don't do ALL my own work, but I do watch
things pretty carefully... at least fluid levels and condition. As I
FIRST stated, from the Tranny dipstick, the ATF looked and smelled pretty
good ... to me! ( http://pages.cthome.net/jerohm/ATF1.jpg ). Is there
something ELSE he could have detected while replacing the radiator, or can
I be relatively confident with my dipstick evaluation??
J
I doubt if your shop saw anything other than what you could see by checking
the dipstick unless they dropped the transmission pan. You can be pretty
confident with your dipstick evaluation.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
j***@hotmail.com
2008-11-07 05:21:53 UTC
Permalink
If the Aisin-Warner A341E transmission is like other Aisin products,
then you'll probably see larger amounts of debris in the system. As
long as the clutch plates aren't glazed and therefore susceptible to
new ATF's better lubricity, then you should be fine.

Maybe Mobil or Pennzoil lubrication engineers can tell you more about
the High Mileage products.
Thanks Ray ... again.  Last question.  I had the car in the shop to fix a
radiator leak, that was replaced new in Mar 2008.  The old radiator
(pre-03/2008) wasn't leaking but WAS obviously shot ... just waiting to
fail.  This trip was warranty work, and they claimed a defective
radiator/replaced.  The shop owner/manager is the one that said my ATF was
dirty and required a flush.  I don't do ALL my own work, but I do watch
things pretty carefully... at least fluid levels and condition.  As I FIRST
stated, from the Tranny dipstick, the ATF looked and smelled pretty good ...
to me! (http://pages.cthome.net/jerohm/ATF1.jpg).  Is there something ELSE
he could have detected while replacing the radiator, or can I be relatively
confident with my dipstick evaluation??
j***@hotmail.com
2008-11-07 05:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Here is an explanation of the problem of transmission failure after
flushing/changing old ATF:



Archive for Wednesday, November 15, 2000
Transmission Health Check: Situation Is Fluid

By Ralph Vartabedian
November 15, 2000 in print edition G-1 LA Times

An automobile’s automatic transmission–the technology-packed gearbox
that is built like a Swiss watch, controlled by a sophisticated
computer and cooled by a red liquid that looks like cherry Kool-Aid–is
all too often a repair disaster waiting to happen.

Indeed, a transmission failure will typically cost more than $2,000,
which in many cases is nearly as much as replacing the engine itself.
Once a transmission starts to disintegrate, there isn’t much you can
do except to replace the entire unit.

Dirty automatic transmission fluid is one of the big culprits in
failures, which have grown more common in recent decades as engineers
have made systems more complex, jammed them into smaller spaces and
reduced the amount of outside airflow that cools them.

These trends have made transmission fluid all the more important
because of the crucial role it fulfills. It must lubricate gears,
bearings and other moving parts. It acts as a hydraulic fluid that
operates delicate valves and transfers power in the torque converter,
which is a high-powered fluid clutch that connects the engine to the
gearbox. And it is the only coolant inside the transmission to
transfer out heat.

Unlike motor oil, transmission fluid must provide lubrication but not
be so slippery that bands and clutches inside the transmission would
be unable to grab and transfer power when they are supposed to,
according to Mark Ferner, an engineer at Pennzoil’s lube research
center in Texas.

As transmission fluid ages, it can oxidize or burn up. It starts out
clear with a reddish tint but can end up opaque or brown with an
acrid, burnt odor. Such signs are typical of transmission failure
because they indicate that the transmission is overheating. (Fluid
that loses its color but remains clear is not necessarily a sign of
impending trouble.)

As the fluid oxidizes, it becomes less slippery and offers less
protection to moving parts. It also makes the clutches and bands
inside the transmission more grabby, so shifting is more labored.

All the while, higher temperatures accelerate wear. It is also common
for transmissions to shed metal flakes, but the amount of flaking
grows as a failure approaches, and that can jam valves and abrade
moving parts.

A mistake some motorists make is to change the fluid for the first
time only after they think trouble is coming on a high-mileage car.
The new fluid–with its greater lubrication and fresh detergents–often
will cause clutches to slip and will loosen deposits that can jam
valves. So the new fluid may actually precipitate the failure of a
transmission that is on its last legs.

Auto makers and transmission fluid makers have introduced newer fluids
that are better suited to handling modern operating conditions. At the
same time, they have extended the recommended change intervals. For
example, Ford Motor Co.’s Mercon 5 and General Motors Corp.’s Dextron
3 are described as lifetime fluids.

But a lot of the country’s top transmission experts believe that
motorists who follow such advice are begging for trouble. It makes a
lot of sense to change transmission fluid every 20,000 to 25,000 miles–
about four times as often as the auto makers say.

Ferner, for example, changes his own transmission fluid every 12
months or about 12,000 miles, saying new fluid replenishes the
detergents, contaminant dispersants and friction modifiers that get
used up over time.

Sam Memmolo, a master mechanic with a repair shop in Georgia, adds
that spending $100 or so on a fluid change to protect a $2,000
transmission is “a no-brainer.”

*

Knowing what to ask for in a transmission fluid change is a little
more complicated than getting a motor oil change. Auto makers do not
provide drain plugs for transmissions, so garages have developed two
ways to do the job.

Traditionally, a mechanic unbolts and removes the transmission oil
pan, a messy job that often results in burnt knuckles. With the pan
off, the mechanic typically changes the transmission filter, which is
either a screen or a cartridge with a felt filter inside. A good
tranny man can tell a lot about the health of a transmission from
looking at the amount of metal flakes inside a filter. The service
costs about $65.

But this method leaves several quarts of dirty fluid inside the torque
converter. Some garages now offer an alternative fluid change, in
which the old fluid is pumped out of the transmission through a
coolant line. The cost is typically about $60 to $80.

Although this procedure results in a complete fluid change, the old
filter remains behind. But a transmission filter may not need to be
changed every 25,000 miles, because it will continue to allow
unrestricted flow.

A third option–which many transmission mechanics recommend at least
every 50,000 miles–is to spend $110 to $130 and have both services
done at once.
Post by Jerohm
a while back, I remember reading that RATHER than a flush, LS400 owners
should politely ask for ONLY a drain and refill ... due to the possibility
of causing more damage than it is worth.  Urban myth or any truth?  Thanks
for any insight
j
jim beam
2008-11-08 01:34:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:12:45 -0800, johngdole wrote:
<snip crap>

why are you posting non-quantitative oilco/marketing spam like this? if
you want to know when to change your transmission fluid, either follow the
manufacturer service procedure/schedule [which they spend millions
researching for you btw] - /or/ use oil analysis. all this bullshit about
"oh, don't worry about data, just spend money with us and we promise you,
uh, well, we'll /tell/ you everything will be just peachy, honest" is just
ridiculous. and naive. and stupid.
j***@hotmail.com
2008-11-08 04:28:13 UTC
Permalink
No, Jim, I attach references so you know the answer didn't come out of
thin air. People can read the words themselves and make up their own
minds.

Some of the manufacturer's intervals are for marketing purposes only.
For example, dino Dexron III has a rated severe service life of about
30-35K miles. So why is it OK to change it at 60K miles in some of
Toyota's (Lexus) transmissions if you're under severe service
category? BTW, the low-tech Type-IV ATF is dino, too.

But you're right. For short term car leases I guess no changes are
needed. ;)
why are you posting non-quantitative oilco/marketing spam like this?  if
you want to know when to change your transmission fluid, either follow the
manufacturer service procedure/schedule [which they spend millions
researching for you btw] - /or/ use oil analysis.  all this bullshit about
"oh, don't worry about data, just spend money with us and we promise you,
uh, well, we'll /tell/ you everything will be just peachy, honest" is just
ridiculous.  and naive.  and stupid.
jim beam
2008-11-08 04:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
No, Jim, I attach references so you know the answer didn't come out of
thin air. People can read the words themselves and make up their own
minds.
actually, all you did was repeat a pile of fact-free marketing garbage
that had succeeded in getting you suckered.

"Sam Memmolo, a master mechanic with a repair shop in Georgia, adds..."

i mean, really, who gives a flying one what "sam memmolo" is alleged to
say? the only thing that's clear in the article is that it's encouraging
you to spend money on transmission oil changes. not even a hint at
testing, analysis, not a single thing scientific or quantitative.

one of the best things about the net is access to information. one of the
worst things, is exposure to mis-information. you need to learn to
filter. if there's no hard data, just opinion of "sam memmolo"'s, you
need to be suspicious of guerrilla marketing - exactly what you'd found
and posted.
Jon G.
2008-11-08 17:47:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim beam
Post by j***@hotmail.com
No, Jim, I attach references so you know the answer didn't come out of
thin air. People can read the words themselves and make up their own
minds.
actually, all you did was repeat a pile of fact-free marketing garbage
that had succeeded in getting you suckered.
"Sam Memmolo, a master mechanic with a repair shop in Georgia, adds..."
i mean, really, who gives a flying one what "sam memmolo" is alleged to
say? the only thing that's clear in the article is that it's encouraging
you to spend money on transmission oil changes. not even a hint at
testing, analysis, not a single thing scientific or quantitative.
one of the best things about the net is access to information. one of the
worst things, is exposure to mis-information. you need to learn to
filter. if there's no hard data, just opinion of "sam memmolo"'s, you
need to be suspicious of guerrilla marketing - exactly what you'd found
and posted.
He's right. I replaced the transmission fluid and filter in an AMC Hornet I
had, and a month later the transmission went bad. It's a little ironic how
servicing something actually makes matters worse.
HLS
2008-11-09 00:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon G.
He's right. I replaced the transmission fluid and filter in an AMC Hornet
I had, and a month later the transmission went bad. It's a little ironic
how servicing something actually makes matters worse.
A lot of people dont service the transmission until the damage is already
done.

If changing transmission fluid and filter causes a problem, then your tranny
was
hanging by a thread anyway.

This is one reason I am cautious about buying a used car. A lot of people
just
run the wheels off of them, and dont service them, and we inherit their
sloppiness.

The manufacturer specifies the change intervals under different type of
severity.
If you dont do the service, then dont bitch when you have a problem.

Oil analysis, and all this other BS, is the refuge of idiots. The
manufacturer tells
you up front what to do. If you choose not to do it, TS.
jim beam
2008-11-09 01:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by HLS
Post by Jon G.
He's right. I replaced the transmission fluid and filter in an AMC
Hornet I had, and a month later the transmission went bad. It's a
little ironic how servicing something actually makes matters worse.
A lot of people dont service the transmission until the damage is
already done.
If changing transmission fluid and filter causes a problem, then your
tranny was
hanging by a thread anyway.
This is one reason I am cautious about buying a used car. A lot of
people just
run the wheels off of them, and dont service them, and we inherit their
sloppiness.
The manufacturer specifies the change intervals under different type of
severity.
If you dont do the service, then dont bitch when you have a problem.
Oil analysis, and all this other BS, is the refuge of idiots.
wow! that's like saying a fuel gauge won't tell you if the tank's got gas
in it! great one dude - we need more of your kind around here!
Post by HLS
The
manufacturer tells
you up front what to do. If you choose not to do it, TS.
measuring beats scheduling. scheduling is for when you can't measure.
Vic Smith
2008-11-09 03:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by HLS
Post by Jon G.
He's right. I replaced the transmission fluid and filter in an AMC Hornet
I had, and a month later the transmission went bad. It's a little ironic
how servicing something actually makes matters worse.
A lot of people dont service the transmission until the damage is already
done.
If changing transmission fluid and filter causes a problem, then your tranny
was
hanging by a thread anyway.
Yeah, the old "new tranny fluid will dissolve the grunge and FUBAR
your tranny" never made any sense.
If it's running by dint of coagulated grunge, it won't last long
anyway.
Post by HLS
This is one reason I am cautious about buying a used car. A lot of people
just
run the wheels off of them, and dont service them, and we inherit their
sloppiness.
Sure, but bad maintenance is usually obvious. If the engine and tranny
are tight, all else is normal, usually inexpensive maintenance.
If the price is too high, you can often get it knocked down by
pointing out something like looseness in the suspension, etc.
I've got a '90 Corsica 2.2 we've been driving around town since I saw
it on the street with a "For Sale" sign over ten years ago.
Been a great second car.
The guy wanted $3k, and it was worth that to me, even though the test
drive showed in needed struts. I didn't even mention the struts,
because the price was a good one.
After the test drive my 15 year old pointed out the only blemish on
the car, a buffable scratch. The guy heard my kid point out the
scratch, and said, "I'll give it to you for $2500."
That $500 more than paid for new struts.
He just wanted to get rid of the car, because his kid had graduated
HS, was off to college, and they just didn't need it anymore.
Post by HLS
The manufacturer specifies the change intervals under different type of
severity.
If you dont do the service, then dont bitch when you have a problem.
Oil analysis, and all this other BS, is the refuge of idiots. The
manufacturer tells
you up front what to do. If you choose not to do it, TS.
Yep. Cars don't get high cholesterol treatable with Lipitor.

--Vic

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