RX or BMW X5? Which?

[Gardis]

Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i,
1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about
upgrading. Would love a preowned X5, but haven't found one with low
miles (minimum is 2006 I will buy). But the gas mileage is starting to
concern me now, with premium gas about $4.20/gallon now up here. And
not going down anytime soon.

How does the RX stack up with mileage? I heard it's built on a Camry
chassis, is that right?

Any direction you can give me, let me know.

Gardis from Connecticut
***@gmail.com

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by Gardis
Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i,
1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about
upgrading. Would love a preowned X5, but haven't found one with low
miles (minimum is 2006 I will buy). But the gas mileage is starting to
concern me now, with premium gas about $4.20/gallon now up here. And
not going down anytime soon.
How does the RX stack up with mileage? I heard it's built on a Camry
chassis, is that right?

It's a Camry wagon.

Until you've experienced a Lexus, you don't know how nice owning a car
can be.

[j***@hotmail.com]

Yes, the RX is based on the Toyota Camry platform. Lexus is made by
Toyota.

The RX suspension is kinda harsh IMO, and earlier ones have
transmission problems (google RX transmission problems). There are
reports that the new 3.5L V6 engine have a problem called "piston
slap" probably because of loose production tolerances (no precise
piston-cylinder matching), because brand new Lexus on the dealer lots
do that too.

I think you'll do much better with the BMW X5. IMO, Lexus is quiet,
nicely dolled-up with good attention to interior details, but they
lack the advanced engineering you'll find in a BMW. In that respect
BMW really gives you more for the money. BTW you have to get a Lexus
oil change every 5000 miles instead of 10,000-20,000 miles with true
performance cars. So what kind of car is that?

Check out the newer BMW engines (w/ or w/o twin turbos), these begin
to use no throttle plates but instead rely on continuously variable
valve timing as you step on the accelerator!!

Post by Gardis
Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i,
1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about
upgrading. Would love a preowned X5, but haven't found one with low
miles (minimum is 2006 I will buy). But the gas mileage is starting to
concern me now, with premium gas about $4.20/gallon now up here. And
not going down anytime soon.
How does the RX stack up with mileage? I heard it's built on a Camry
chassis, is that right?
Any direction you can give me, let me know.
Gardis from Connecticut

[DaveW]

Post by j***@hotmail.com
Yes, the RX is based on the Toyota Camry platform. Lexus is made by
Toyota.

Really? Lexus is affiliated with Toyota? Do you have some kind of
inside information, and if so, why haven't you pointed this out to us
600 times before this? Oh, wait, you have...

Post by j***@hotmail.com
BTW you have to get a Lexus
oil change every 5000 miles instead of 10,000-20,000 miles with true
performance cars. So what kind of car is that?

I'll ask this as simply and directly as possible, though I'm sure
you'll ignore me - which car are you referring to that recommends you
change the oil every 20,000 miles?

[j***@hotmail.com]

Around $3x,xxx out of a list: www.edmunds.com

Acura RDX
BMW X3
Buick Enclave
HUMMER H3
Infiniti EX/FX35
Lincoln MKX
Mercury Mountaineer
Nissan Murano
Volvo XC90

Post by Gardis
Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i,
1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about
upgrading. Would love a preowned X5, but haven't found one with low
miles (minimum is 2006 I will buy). But the gas mileage is starting to
concern me now, with premium gas about $4.20/gallon now up here. And
not going down anytime soon.
How does the RX stack up with mileage? I heard it's built on a Camry
chassis, is that right?
Any direction you can give me, let me know.
Gardis from Connecticut

[Stephen Jacobs]

In article

Post by Gardis
Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i,
1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about
upgrading. Would love a preowned X5, but haven't found one with low
miles (minimum is 2006 I will buy). But the gas mileage is starting to
concern me now, with premium gas about $4.20/gallon now up here. And
not going down anytime soon.
How does the RX stack up with mileage? I heard it's built on a Camry
chassis, is that right?
Any direction you can give me, let me know.
Gardis from Connecticut

My wife and I own an '04 RX 330 and a '08 535i. Her RX has been rock
solid reliable and will run fine on regular gas. It gets about 16-17mpg
in the city, 20 or so on the road.

Someone described the RX's ride as ''harsh'. Compared to the BMW, the
ride is soft and compliant.

I've not driven an X5, but I'm sure it's like other BMWs. If so, you
have to decide if the Lexus feel, quite different, is to your liking.

One other thing-- if you get your every 5K service done at the Lexus
dealer, you'll be spending a LOT. My local Lexus dealer wants well above
$200 for all the folderol they do every 5k. Of course you can take it to
Jiffy Lube if you want. The free BMW service is a real advantage.

It comes down to this: drive one. If you like it, it'll be a good car
for you. If you're a BMW enthusiast, you'll perhaps not enjoy the ride
that much.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by Stephen Jacobs
One other thing-- if you get your every 5K service done at the Lexus
dealer, you'll be spending a LOT. My local Lexus dealer wants well above
$200 for all the folderol they do every 5k. Of course you can take it to
Jiffy Lube if you want. The free BMW service is a real advantage.

<snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you?

[DaveW]

On Thu, 08 May 2008 07:10:15 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by Stephen Jacobs
One other thing-- if you get your every 5K service done at the Lexus
dealer, you'll be spending a LOT. My local Lexus dealer wants well above
$200 for all the folderol they do every 5k. Of course you can take it to
Jiffy Lube if you want. The free BMW service is a real advantage.

<snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you?

Sure it is. They do it out of the kindness in their hearts. You don't
think they'd build it into the purchase price and then tell people it
was free, do you? That would be wrong - something only an immoral
Lexus "stealership" would do.

[Stephen Jacobs]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by Stephen Jacobs
One other thing-- if you get your every 5K service done at the Lexus
dealer, you'll be spending a LOT. My local Lexus dealer wants well above
$200 for all the folderol they do every 5k. Of course you can take it to
Jiffy Lube if you want. The free BMW service is a real advantage.

<snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you?

Of course it's not free-- I've paid for it in the price of the car. The
fact is, though, that ownership of a Lexus requires a further expense
after purchase. BMW does not.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by Stephen Jacobs

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
<snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you?

Of course it's not free-- I've paid for it in the price of the car. The
fact is, though, that ownership of a Lexus requires a further expense
after purchase. BMW does not.

So evaluate the TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP.

Jesus. Are people really so dumb as to think that paying up front for
something is somehow inherently better than paying for it later?

How is "no further expense after purchase" better in any way?

Of course, you were the one who said that the service was "free", so you
obviously got suckered by the marketing game.

Man. What a world. "It's FREE!"

[Gardis]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by Stephen Jacobs

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
<snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you?

Of course it's not free-- I've paid for it in the price of the car. The
fact is, though, that ownership of a Lexus requires a further expense
after purchase. BMW does not.

So evaluate the TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP.
Jesus. Are people really so dumb as to think that paying up front for
something is somehow inherently better than paying for it later?
How is "no further expense after purchase" better in any way?
Of course, you were the one who said that the service was "free", so you
obviously got suckered by the marketing game.
Man. What a world. "It's FREE!"

Thank you that was helpful. I thought the RX had a little better gas
mileage than that (20's on highway? seems low to me). On my 328i i"m
getting 18 around town, and up to 30mpg on straight highway trips. In
line 6 cylinder. The x5 is very much heavier and naturally cannot get
that kind of gas mileage. Especially the 2007, they went and made them
heavier, even. Now with $4.00 gas, I think the consumers are going to
demand better mileage. Lexus has to drive like a toyota. Smooth, and
cushy, right? the German engineering is very taut. Many people do not
like it.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by Gardis
Lexus has to drive like a toyota. Smooth, and
cushy, right?

Mostly. Give it a try, see what you think.

[Lurfys Maw]

On Fri, 09 May 2008 06:16:13 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by Stephen Jacobs

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
<snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you?

Of course it's not free-- I've paid for it in the price of the car. The
fact is, though, that ownership of a Lexus requires a further expense
after purchase. BMW does not.

So evaluate the TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP.
Jesus. Are people really so dumb as to think that paying up front for
something is somehow inherently better than paying for it later?
How is "no further expense after purchase" better in any way?
Of course, you were the one who said that the service was "free", so you
obviously got suckered by the marketing game.
Man. What a world. "It's FREE!"

Are you saying that there is no advantage to "prepaying" for service
in the cost of the car (assuming that the additional cost is equal to
the cost of the service)?

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Jesus. Are people really so dumb as to think that paying up front for
something is somehow inherently better than paying for it later?
How is "no further expense after purchase" better in any way?
Of course, you were the one who said that the service was "free", so you
obviously got suckered by the marketing game.
Man. What a world. "It's FREE!"

Are you saying that there is no advantage to "prepaying" for service
in the cost of the car (assuming that the additional cost is equal to
the cost of the service)?

Correct.

By definition, you're paying for what THEY think needs to be done to
properly maintain the car, and you're paying at THEIR rates.

You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for
example, while maintaining all warranty coverage.

Also, it's a pure marketing gag--they get to define what "maintenance
items" means from a marketing standpoint, then the small print taketh
away by saying "this item and that item and those other items are
consumables, not maintenance items". So you go there for your "free"
oil change at 12,000 miles, and end up spending $100 for wiper blades.

Yes, overall it's a bad deal for the customer--otherwise they wouldn't
market it. It's to the customer's advantage to be in control of all
costs at all times.

[Lurfys Maw]

On Sun, 11 May 2008 11:19:34 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Jesus. Are people really so dumb as to think that paying up front for
something is somehow inherently better than paying for it later?
How is "no further expense after purchase" better in any way?
Of course, you were the one who said that the service was "free", so you
obviously got suckered by the marketing game.
Man. What a world. "It's FREE!"

Are you saying that there is no advantage to "prepaying" for service
in the cost of the car (assuming that the additional cost is equal to
the cost of the service)?

Correct.
By definition, you're paying for what THEY think needs to be done to
properly maintain the car, and you're paying at THEIR rates.
You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for
example, while maintaining all warranty coverage.

Independent service garages are something of a crap shoot and if I
have a problem, I can't complain to Lexus or the sales department of
the dealer, who wants to sell me my next car.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Also, it's a pure marketing gag--they get to define what "maintenance
items" means from a marketing standpoint, then the small print taketh
away by saying "this item and that item and those other items are
consumables, not maintenance items". So you go there for your "free"
oil change at 12,000 miles, and end up spending $100 for wiper blades.

If you aren't smart enough to decide on $100 wiper blades, then
probably nothing will work...

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Yes, overall it's a bad deal for the customer--otherwise they wouldn't
market it.

There's short-range marketing and long-range marketing.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
It's to the customer's advantage to be in control of all
costs at all times.

There's control and there's control.

Your "it ain't free" position leaves out several factors that may be
significant to some customers. And when you calculate TCO, you must
include the cost of your time.

For me, the comprehensive "everything but gas" warrantees are a good
value. We own two Lexus cars. For anything but an A-level service (oil
change), then send a flatbed truck with a loaner car. They drop off
the loaner car and pick up my car. The next day, the bring my car back
and pick up the loaner. My total time commitment is less than 30
minutes including the call to schedule it. For the A service, I drive
to the service facility. They have a lounge with desks, snacks, and
wireless access. I'm there for 2-3 hours and I get some work done.

The comprehensive warrantees have another benefits that your "it ain't
free" position ignores.

1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no
incentive to find things to fix. And since they are going to do any
future repairs for "free", there's no incentive to skimp on repairs.

2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they
are motivated to make the car reliable. If they break less, then I
have to spend less time to deal with the repairs and I am less likely
to be without wheels.

My father-in-law used to check the grocery store ads and then drive
across town to save 10 cents on a can of beans. He was raised in the
depression and that shaped his values. He was what my mom used to call
"penny wise and pound foolish". I think she might say that about you.

ymmv

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for
example, while maintaining all warranty coverage.

Independent service garages are something of a crap shoot

<snort> Yeah, if you just stumble around blindly.

Oh, and make sure you understand something: auto dealerships are
independent businesses, too. BMW, for example, has little to nothing to
do with how the BMW dealer runs his service department. They're a crap
shoot just as much as any other independent business.

Post by Lurfys Maw
Your "it ain't free" position leaves out several factors that may be
significant to some customers. And when you calculate TCO, you must
include the cost of your time.

How does any of this affect the fact that it ain't free. Period.
You're paying for it.

Unfortunately, you're forced into paying what the manufacturer wants you
to pay, for exactly the services the manufacturer wants to give you.
That may or may not suit your needs. Why lock yourself into it?

Post by Lurfys Maw
For me, the comprehensive "everything but gas" warrantees are a good
value. We own two Lexus cars. For anything but an A-level service (oil
change), then send a flatbed truck with a loaner car. They drop off
the loaner car and pick up my car. The next day, the bring my car back
and pick up the loaner. My total time commitment is less than 30
minutes including the call to schedule it. For the A service, I drive
to the service facility. They have a lounge with desks, snacks, and
wireless access. I'm there for 2-3 hours and I get some work done.

And you pay $150 for that oil change.

Nice.

Post by Lurfys Maw
The comprehensive warrantees have another benefits that your "it ain't
free" position ignores.
1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no
incentive to find things to fix.

I'm sorry--did you say that the independing dealership isn't getting
paid for repairs?

Did you really say that?

Of COURSE they're getting paid for repairs. Toyota pays them. The
dealership isn't doing this out of the goodness of his heart.

And there are "normal wear and tear" items that aren't covered by any
warranty or maintenance program. Any shop that charges $150 for an oil
change has HUGE incentive to find those things. And they know all about
them--while chances are extremely good that the customer doesn't,
because he never bothered to open any paperwork he got, including the
owner's manual.

Post by Lurfys Maw
2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they
are motivated to make the car reliable.

I find it fascinating, then, that you would buy a Lexus and not a
Hyundai--with its 10 year warranty. I mean, talk about incentive to
make it good. That's MUCH more incentive to make it good.

I'd bet the mortgage that Toyota has engineers studying closely on how
to build the engine to last the length of the warranty, but not
necessarily any longer. That's how Toyota makes money.



I buy Toyota and Honda, because they make good cars and good engines.
But I have no need to have the dealership be the sole source of support.
I don't pay up front, which gives me the flexibility on how to handle
things on a case by case basis. That's not penny wise/pound foolish;
that's simply good old fashioned common sense.

[Lurfys Maw]

On Sun, 11 May 2008 13:53:50 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for
example, while maintaining all warranty coverage.

Independent service garages are something of a crap shoot

<snort> Yeah, if you just stumble around blindly.
Oh, and make sure you understand something: auto dealerships are
independent businesses, too. BMW, for example, has little to nothing to
do with how the BMW dealer runs his service department. They're a crap
shoot just as much as any other independent business.

I'm not sure if you are ignorant or provocative. The car manufacturer
has a lot to do with how the dealership is run. They can pull the
authorization to sell thier cars and/or make it difficult for them to
keep their inventory stocked, etc.

They are something of a crap shoot, but I can complain to Lexus, who
might do something if I have a legitimate complaint. With Elmo's
Transmission & Smog Test garage, I can complain to the state BAR.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
Your "it ain't free" position leaves out several factors that may be
significant to some customers. And when you calculate TCO, you must
include the cost of your time.

How does any of this affect the fact that it ain't free. Period.
You're paying for it.

I think you need to read more slowly so that it sinks in. I agreed
with you that it ain't free. I was trying to include other factors
into the TCO, which you ignored.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Unfortunately, you're forced into paying what the manufacturer wants you
to pay, for exactly the services the manufacturer wants to give you.
That may or may not suit your needs. Why lock yourself into it?

Only if the TCO makes sense. For me, the TCO is lower for the Lexus
package including dealership service than any other option. It may not
be for you. I am not interested in spending my time to find a place
that is competent, reliable, and $100 cheaper for an oil change.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
For me, the comprehensive "everything but gas" warrantees are a good
value. We own two Lexus cars. For anything but an A-level service (oil
change), then send a flatbed truck with a loaner car. They drop off
the loaner car and pick up my car. The next day, the bring my car back
and pick up the loaner. My total time commitment is less than 30
minutes including the call to schedule it. For the A service, I drive
to the service facility. They have a lounge with desks, snacks, and
wireless access. I'm there for 2-3 hours and I get some work done.

And you pay $150 for that oil change.

All things considered, I would pay at least that much for the oil
change at Jiffy Lube, where I would never go anyway. Having ALL my
service done at the dealership establishes a relationship that has
benefits. I've gotten a few perks along the way. One time they
replaced a key for free that had become loose. Another time, they
replaced the key battery for free. Another time, they upgraded the GPS
database for free.

Perhaps the best "freebee" was shortly after we bought my wife's RX
300. For some reason, that model has an external power antenna. It was
just a few inches too tall to clear the garage door. She tried to
remember to turn the radio off before entering the garage, but kept
forgetting. Goind in wasn;t too bad because the antenna tiled back
slightly. One time, it was up when she backed out and it got bent and
would not retract. I called the service department. TYhey said to
bring it by. They spent about 2 hours replacing the entire assembly
with a new one and then cutting it down 6" so that it clears the door.
No charge.

PS: I guess to avoid setting you off, I should add that by "for free",
I mean they did not charge me again. ;-)

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Nice.

I think so.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
The comprehensive warrantees have another benefits that your "it ain't
free" position ignores.
1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no
incentive to find things to fix.

I'm sorry--did you say that the independing dealership isn't getting
paid for repairs?
Did you really say that?
Of COURSE they're getting paid for repairs. Toyota pays them. The
dealership isn't doing this out of the goodness of his heart.

Again, either you aren't listening or are just being provocative. What
I meant was that, as you point out, they have already been paid. They
aren't going to get paid any more.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And there are "normal wear and tear" items that aren't covered by any
warranty or maintenance program. Any shop that charges $150 for an oil
change has HUGE incentive to find those things. And they know all about
them--while chances are extremely good that the customer doesn't,
because he never bothered to open any paperwork he got, including the
owner's manual.

I have owned Lexus for 7-8 years now. The dealership has done 100% of
the service. I have never once felt that I was getting charged for
unnecessary extras.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they
are motivated to make the car reliable.

I find it fascinating, then, that you would buy a Lexus and not a
Hyundai--with its 10 year warranty. I mean, talk about incentive to
make it good. That's MUCH more incentive to make it good.

I don't want to drive a Hyundai, but if I did, the 10 year warranty
would be an asset.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I'd bet the mortgage that Toyota has engineers studying closely on how
to build the engine to last the length of the warranty, but not
necessarily any longer. That's how Toyota makes money.

Now you're just being juvenile.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I buy Toyota and Honda, because they make good cars and good engines.
But I have no need to have the dealership be the sole source of support.
I don't pay up front, which gives me the flexibility on how to handle
things on a case by case basis. That's not penny wise/pound foolish;
that's simply good old fashioned common sense.

What's common sense for one is foolish for another. If you have the
time and inclination to take care of that yourself and save a few
bucks, go for it. For me, not having to deal with it is worth it.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your values. I can't understand why
you are peeing on mine. I'm just pointing out that the issue is more
complicated than you suggested.

I go down to the dealership for my high-priced oil change and the
place is packed with other morons like me happily having their cars
serviced. I guess the free market system isn't working... ;-)

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw
I think you need to read more slowly so that it sinks in. I agreed
with you that it ain't free. I was trying to include other factors
into the TCO, which you ignored.

Not at all.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And you pay $150 for that oil change.

All things considered, I would pay at least that much for the oil
change at Jiffy Lube, where I would never go anyway. Having ALL my
service done at the dealership establishes a relationship that has
benefits. I've gotten a few perks along the way. One time they
replaced a key for free that had become loose. Another time, they
replaced the key battery for free. Another time, they upgraded the GPS
database for free.

I don't dispute that. I get the same benefits by going to my Honda
dealer. I have a 20 year relationship with them, and they acknowledge
it. In fact, the same people have been there all along.

But I won't lock myself in to going to them.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no
incentive to find things to fix.

I'm sorry--did you say that the independing dealership isn't getting
paid for repairs?
Did you really say that?
Of COURSE they're getting paid for repairs. Toyota pays them. The
dealership isn't doing this out of the goodness of his heart.

Again, either you aren't listening or are just being provocative. What
I meant was that, as you point out, they have already been paid. They
aren't going to get paid any more.

The dealership hasn't been paid up front by any means. Every time an RO
is written and submitted, Toyota pays the bill. You just have no idea
how a dealership service department works, do you.

Further, they then do have incentive to find other things--because no
matter what, they get paid--every time they do work. Whether you pay
them or Toyota pays them, it doesn't matter. They are paid AS THEY DO
THE WORK.

You had best learn how a dealership does business. It's obvious you're
getting fleeced.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they
are motivated to make the car reliable.

I find it fascinating, then, that you would buy a Lexus and not a
Hyundai--with its 10 year warranty. I mean, talk about incentive to
make it good. That's MUCH more incentive to make it good.

I don't want to drive a Hyundai, but if I did, the 10 year warranty
would be an asset.

Why wouldn't you want to drive a Hyundai? After all, the "free" extends
far, far longer than with Toyota.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I'd bet the mortgage that Toyota has engineers studying closely on how
to build the engine to last the length of the warranty, but not
necessarily any longer. That's how Toyota makes money.

Now you're just being juvenile.

You dispute the concept of planned obsolesence?

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw
I go down to the dealership for my high-priced oil change and the
place is packed with other morons like me happily having their cars
serviced. I guess the free market system isn't working... ;-)

"You've probably noticed that opinion pollsters go out of their way to
include as many morons as possible in surveys ... I think it's dangerous
to inform morons about what their fellow morons are thinking. It only
reinforces their opinions. And the one thing worse than a moron with an
opinion is lots of them." -- Scott Adams

In other words: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large
groups.

[GIga]

In the small world of McBrew-jerks and ShagNasty's, there are precisely two
possible answers to any question: Theirs, and the wrong one. Please don't
try to convince them to think outside their tiny little worlds -- you will
scare them, and they will cry.

GIga

Post by Lurfys Maw
On Sun, 11 May 2008 13:53:50 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for
example, while maintaining all warranty coverage.

Independent service garages are something of a crap shoot

<snort> Yeah, if you just stumble around blindly.
Oh, and make sure you understand something: auto dealerships are
independent businesses, too. BMW, for example, has little to nothing to
do with how the BMW dealer runs his service department. They're a crap
shoot just as much as any other independent business.

I'm not sure if you are ignorant or provocative. The car manufacturer
has a lot to do with how the dealership is run. They can pull the
authorization to sell thier cars and/or make it difficult for them to
keep their inventory stocked, etc.
They are something of a crap shoot, but I can complain to Lexus, who
might do something if I have a legitimate complaint. With Elmo's
Transmission & Smog Test garage, I can complain to the state BAR.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
Your "it ain't free" position leaves out several factors that may be
significant to some customers. And when you calculate TCO, you must
include the cost of your time.

How does any of this affect the fact that it ain't free. Period.
You're paying for it.

I think you need to read more slowly so that it sinks in. I agreed
with you that it ain't free. I was trying to include other factors
into the TCO, which you ignored.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Unfortunately, you're forced into paying what the manufacturer wants you
to pay, for exactly the services the manufacturer wants to give you.
That may or may not suit your needs. Why lock yourself into it?

Only if the TCO makes sense. For me, the TCO is lower for the Lexus
package including dealership service than any other option. It may not
be for you. I am not interested in spending my time to find a place
that is competent, reliable, and $100 cheaper for an oil change.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
For me, the comprehensive "everything but gas" warrantees are a good
value. We own two Lexus cars. For anything but an A-level service (oil
change), then send a flatbed truck with a loaner car. They drop off
the loaner car and pick up my car. The next day, the bring my car back
and pick up the loaner. My total time commitment is less than 30
minutes including the call to schedule it. For the A service, I drive
to the service facility. They have a lounge with desks, snacks, and
wireless access. I'm there for 2-3 hours and I get some work done.

And you pay $150 for that oil change.

All things considered, I would pay at least that much for the oil
change at Jiffy Lube, where I would never go anyway. Having ALL my
service done at the dealership establishes a relationship that has
benefits. I've gotten a few perks along the way. One time they
replaced a key for free that had become loose. Another time, they
replaced the key battery for free. Another time, they upgraded the GPS
database for free.
Perhaps the best "freebee" was shortly after we bought my wife's RX
300. For some reason, that model has an external power antenna. It was
just a few inches too tall to clear the garage door. She tried to
remember to turn the radio off before entering the garage, but kept
forgetting. Goind in wasn;t too bad because the antenna tiled back
slightly. One time, it was up when she backed out and it got bent and
would not retract. I called the service department. TYhey said to
bring it by. They spent about 2 hours replacing the entire assembly
with a new one and then cutting it down 6" so that it clears the door.
No charge.
PS: I guess to avoid setting you off, I should add that by "for free",
I mean they did not charge me again. ;-)

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Nice.

I think so.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
The comprehensive warrantees have another benefits that your "it ain't
free" position ignores.
1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no
incentive to find things to fix.

I'm sorry--did you say that the independing dealership isn't getting
paid for repairs?
Did you really say that?
Of COURSE they're getting paid for repairs. Toyota pays them. The
dealership isn't doing this out of the goodness of his heart.

Again, either you aren't listening or are just being provocative. What
I meant was that, as you point out, they have already been paid. They
aren't going to get paid any more.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And there are "normal wear and tear" items that aren't covered by any
warranty or maintenance program. Any shop that charges $150 for an oil
change has HUGE incentive to find those things. And they know all about
them--while chances are extremely good that the customer doesn't,
because he never bothered to open any paperwork he got, including the
owner's manual.

I have owned Lexus for 7-8 years now. The dealership has done 100% of
the service. I have never once felt that I was getting charged for
unnecessary extras.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they
are motivated to make the car reliable.

I find it fascinating, then, that you would buy a Lexus and not a
Hyundai--with its 10 year warranty. I mean, talk about incentive to
make it good. That's MUCH more incentive to make it good.

I don't want to drive a Hyundai, but if I did, the 10 year warranty
would be an asset.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I'd bet the mortgage that Toyota has engineers studying closely on how
to build the engine to last the length of the warranty, but not
necessarily any longer. That's how Toyota makes money.

Now you're just being juvenile.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I buy Toyota and Honda, because they make good cars and good engines.
But I have no need to have the dealership be the sole source of support.
I don't pay up front, which gives me the flexibility on how to handle
things on a case by case basis. That's not penny wise/pound foolish;
that's simply good old fashioned common sense.

What's common sense for one is foolish for another. If you have the
time and inclination to take care of that yourself and save a few
bucks, go for it. For me, not having to deal with it is worth it.
I'm not trying to talk you out of your values. I can't understand why
you are peeing on mine. I'm just pointing out that the issue is more
complicated than you suggested.
I go down to the dealership for my high-priced oil change and the
place is packed with other morons like me happily having their cars
serviced. I guess the free market system isn't working... ;-)

[Lurfys Maw]

Post by GIga
In the small world of McBrew-jerks and ShagNasty's, there are precisely two
possible answers to any question: Theirs, and the wrong one.

At least I am a member of a very large group! ;-)

Post by GIga
Please don't
try to convince them to think outside their tiny little worlds -- you will
scare them, and they will cry.

Apparently so. I don't think I have ever said anything so scary that
it triggered seven (count 'em) responses. Goodness, I hope he recovers
without any permanent damage. ;-)

Coincidentally, I just happened to take my LS 400 in for an A-level
service (oil change) today. I just got back. The service itself was
$180. I arrived at the shop at 10:00 and was on my way home at 11:45.
While I waited, I had access to a lounge with large screen TV or one
of the computer booths with a desk, a phone, internet access, and a
connection to a printer, copier, and fax machine. There was also a bar
with coffee, tea, a large bin with pastries and cookies, and a
refrigerator with water, juice, and sodas.

I told them that one of the tires seemed to be losing air. They found
a nail, patched it from the inside (not a plug), and remounted and
balanced it for $25.

The $180 included all the checks (fluids, hoses, belts) plus they
flushed the windshield washer system and replaced the fluid, replaced
the windshield wipers (a $100 value according to Elmo), rotated the
tires, and washed the car.

For me, that beats Jiffy Lube or Elmo's Radiator and Smog Test Garage
even if it was free.

ymmv

Post by GIga
GIga

Post by Lurfys Maw
On Sun, 11 May 2008 13:53:50 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for
example, while maintaining all warranty coverage.

Independent service garages are something of a crap shoot

<snort> Yeah, if you just stumble around blindly.
Oh, and make sure you understand something: auto dealerships are
independent businesses, too. BMW, for example, has little to nothing to
do with how the BMW dealer runs his service department. They're a crap
shoot just as much as any other independent business.

I'm not sure if you are ignorant or provocative. The car manufacturer
has a lot to do with how the dealership is run. They can pull the
authorization to sell thier cars and/or make it difficult for them to
keep their inventory stocked, etc.
They are something of a crap shoot, but I can complain to Lexus, who
might do something if I have a legitimate complaint. With Elmo's
Transmission & Smog Test garage, I can complain to the state BAR.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
Your "it ain't free" position leaves out several factors that may be
significant to some customers. And when you calculate TCO, you must
include the cost of your time.

How does any of this affect the fact that it ain't free. Period.
You're paying for it.

I think you need to read more slowly so that it sinks in. I agreed
with you that it ain't free. I was trying to include other factors
into the TCO, which you ignored.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Unfortunately, you're forced into paying what the manufacturer wants you
to pay, for exactly the services the manufacturer wants to give you.
That may or may not suit your needs. Why lock yourself into it?

Only if the TCO makes sense. For me, the TCO is lower for the Lexus
package including dealership service than any other option. It may not
be for you. I am not interested in spending my time to find a place
that is competent, reliable, and $100 cheaper for an oil change.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
For me, the comprehensive "everything but gas" warrantees are a good
value. We own two Lexus cars. For anything but an A-level service (oil
change), then send a flatbed truck with a loaner car. They drop off
the loaner car and pick up my car. The next day, the bring my car back
and pick up the loaner. My total time commitment is less than 30
minutes including the call to schedule it. For the A service, I drive
to the service facility. They have a lounge with desks, snacks, and
wireless access. I'm there for 2-3 hours and I get some work done.

And you pay $150 for that oil change.

All things considered, I would pay at least that much for the oil
change at Jiffy Lube, where I would never go anyway. Having ALL my
service done at the dealership establishes a relationship that has
benefits. I've gotten a few perks along the way. One time they
replaced a key for free that had become loose. Another time, they
replaced the key battery for free. Another time, they upgraded the GPS
database for free.
Perhaps the best "freebee" was shortly after we bought my wife's RX
300. For some reason, that model has an external power antenna. It was
just a few inches too tall to clear the garage door. She tried to
remember to turn the radio off before entering the garage, but kept
forgetting. Goind in wasn;t too bad because the antenna tiled back
slightly. One time, it was up when she backed out and it got bent and
would not retract. I called the service department. TYhey said to
bring it by. They spent about 2 hours replacing the entire assembly
with a new one and then cutting it down 6" so that it clears the door.
No charge.
PS: I guess to avoid setting you off, I should add that by "for free",
I mean they did not charge me again. ;-)

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Nice.

I think so.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
The comprehensive warrantees have another benefits that your "it ain't
free" position ignores.
1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no
incentive to find things to fix.

I'm sorry--did you say that the independing dealership isn't getting
paid for repairs?
Did you really say that?
Of COURSE they're getting paid for repairs. Toyota pays them. The
dealership isn't doing this out of the goodness of his heart.

Again, either you aren't listening or are just being provocative. What
I meant was that, as you point out, they have already been paid. They
aren't going to get paid any more.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And there are "normal wear and tear" items that aren't covered by any
warranty or maintenance program. Any shop that charges $150 for an oil
change has HUGE incentive to find those things. And they know all about
them--while chances are extremely good that the customer doesn't,
because he never bothered to open any paperwork he got, including the
owner's manual.

I have owned Lexus for 7-8 years now. The dealership has done 100% of
the service. I have never once felt that I was getting charged for
unnecessary extras.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Lurfys Maw
2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they
are motivated to make the car reliable.

I find it fascinating, then, that you would buy a Lexus and not a
Hyundai--with its 10 year warranty. I mean, talk about incentive to
make it good. That's MUCH more incentive to make it good.

I don't want to drive a Hyundai, but if I did, the 10 year warranty
would be an asset.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I'd bet the mortgage that Toyota has engineers studying closely on how
to build the engine to last the length of the warranty, but not
necessarily any longer. That's how Toyota makes money.

Now you're just being juvenile.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I buy Toyota and Honda, because they make good cars and good engines.
But I have no need to have the dealership be the sole source of support.
I don't pay up front, which gives me the flexibility on how to handle
things on a case by case basis. That's not penny wise/pound foolish;
that's simply good old fashioned common sense.

What's common sense for one is foolish for another. If you have the
time and inclination to take care of that yourself and save a few
bucks, go for it. For me, not having to deal with it is worth it.
I'm not trying to talk you out of your values. I can't understand why
you are peeing on mine. I'm just pointing out that the issue is more
complicated than you suggested.
I go down to the dealership for my high-priced oil change and the
place is packed with other morons like me happily having their cars
serviced. I guess the free market system isn't working... ;-)

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Lurfys Maw
Coincidentally, I just happened to take my LS 400 in for an A-level
service (oil change) today. I just got back. The service itself was
$180. I arrived at the shop at 10:00 and was on my way home at 11:45.

And you think no other dealership could do that?

I can do it at my Honda dealership. Frankly, an hour and 45 minutes is
WAY overboard for an oil change and some "checks". If they can't do it
in half an hour....

Say, what did you say about how it's worth it, because your time is
worth something?

Oh, and my Honda dealership will change the oil for....let me
see.....$32? Something like that.

$180, eh? Yes sir, an hour and 45 minutes plus $180. You do know the
value of things, don't you.

Post by Lurfys Maw
While I waited, I had access to a lounge with large screen TV or one
of the computer booths with a desk, a phone, internet access, and a
connection to a printer, copier, and fax machine. There was also a bar
with coffee, tea, a large bin with pastries and cookies, and a
refrigerator with water, juice, and sodas.

hehehehehe I have to laugh, because my Honda dealer has the same
amenities.

Post by Lurfys Maw
The $180 included all the checks (fluids, hoses, belts) plus they
flushed the windshield washer system and replaced the fluid, replaced
the windshield wipers (a $100 value according to Elmo), rotated the
tires, and washed the car.

Flushed the windshield washer system? Did they also change the blinker
fluid?

"All the checks." They mean, while the guy was pouring oil in, he
eyeballed to make sure nothing obvious was leaking or ready to break.

Gee, my Honda dealer also washes the car as part of the oil change.

And yes, I can choose to pay for tire rotation as well. Oil change plus
tire rotation is $72. Add in wiper blades, we're up to a whopping, let
me see here...eleven bucks per, installed.....$94. And that gets the
large screen TV, computer booths, juice/cookies just like you got.

What did that other $86 buy you?

[j***@hotmail.com]

Take the Lexus ES and RX as an example, these are modified Toyota
Camrys. Across the street Toyota will change oil for $25, but Lexus
charges about $100. Some owners just like to kept in the dark as to
what they really drive.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Flushed the windshield washer system? Did they also change the blinker
fluid?
"All the checks." They mean, while the guy was pouring oil in, he
eyeballed to make sure nothing obvious was leaking or ready to break.
Gee, my Honda dealer also washes the car as part of the oil change.
And yes, I can choose to pay for tire rotation as well. Oil change plus
tire rotation is $72. Add in wiper blades, we're up to a whopping, let
me see here...eleven bucks per, installed.....$94. And that gets the
large screen TV, computer booths, juice/cookies just like you got.
What did that other $86 buy you?

[St. John Smythe]

Post by Lurfys Maw
Are you saying that there is no advantage to "prepaying" for service
in the cost of the car (assuming that the additional cost is equal to
the cost of the service)?

Would you rather have the car company be earning the interest on that
money, or be earning it yourself?

[Lurfys Maw]

On Sun, 11 May 2008 11:13:59 -0400, "St. John Smythe"

Post by St. John Smythe

Post by Lurfys Maw
Are you saying that there is no advantage to "prepaying" for service
in the cost of the car (assuming that the additional cost is equal to
the cost of the service)?

Would you rather have the car company be earning the interest on that
money, or be earning it yourself?

OK, factor that in, too. Is it equivalent if the prepaid cost is equal
to the unprepaid cost + service - interwst?

It's unlikely that most people would actually earn any interest on
that money, because they would just spend it on something else. I
won't ask you to factor that in, even though it's likely to be greater
than the lost interest.