Toyota's Lagging Lexus and Scion Brands

[john]

Looks like the two best selling Lexus models are still modified
Camrys. That's understandable. GS is a zombie and essentially nobody
wants the LS.

"When it comes to Lexus, the issue is pretty clear: The luxury brand
is far too dependent on just two of its nine models. The ES330/350
sedan and RX350 line account for two-thirds of sales. The GS sedan
lineup—rear-wheel-drive sedans meant to take on German brands—haven't
caught on, selling just 3,500 cars this year. "Lexus needs to find a
way to get more consideration and higher sales volume for some of
these other models, which haven't seemed to hit the mark like the
other two," says Jim Hall of 2953 Analytics, a Birmingham (Mich.)
design and marketing consultancy.

Inaba sees two problems he needs to tackle: First, he says, Toyota has
been making too many decisions about new models and designs in Japan.
"We are becoming more regionally focused now and pushing decisions
down to the places where the vehicles will be sold," he said. To that
end, several "global" job titles have been eliminated. Second, he
believes Toyota's vehicle designs must be jazzed up. "It's been a fair
criticism that our designs do not have enough excitement," he said.

The GS, notes consultant Hall, has been a very good sedan, but it
takes on neither the BMW 3 Series nor the Mercedes E Class in size,
performance, or price. "It's in the middle and that can be a tough
place to be," Hall says. "That car needs to take on one or the other
in sales volume for Lexus to grow." Unit sales this year for five of
Lexus' nine product lines will total less than 10,000 each."

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jul2009/db20090724_856496.htm

[john]

The GS has neither the performance nor the advanced engineering of
Mercedes and BMW. Just how is it going to compete? No wonder it
doesn't sell. The ride felt pretty mundane to me. Do you like the GS
ride?

Post by john
The GS sedan
lineup—rear-wheel-drive sedans meant to take on German brands—haven't
caught on, selling just 3,500 cars this year.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by john
The GS has neither the performance nor the advanced engineering of
Mercedes and BMW. Just how is it going to compete? No wonder it
doesn't sell. The ride felt pretty mundane to me.

No doubt. Lexus isn't known as the "Japanese Buick" for nothing.

If they compete with BMW and M-B, does that mean they give the GS shitty
build quality and crappy materials (M-B) and overall crappy reliability,
especially after 3 years/75K miles (both)?

Toyota builds boring cars that JUST PLAIN WORK, and they DO WELL the job
they've been built to do. To many, that's more than they've seen out of
any car maker.

I will say this: take the damn lawyers out and shoot them, and build
the cars the way they need to be built. If you take the nanny factor
out of the Toyota lineup, you might have Hondas.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by john
Looks like the two best selling Lexus models are still modified
Camrys. That's understandable. GS is a zombie and essentially nobody
wants the LS.

Not really 'modified Camrys', but cars based on a similar platform (like
Malibu, Bonneville, LeSabre) with different appointments, stretched
platforms, etc. They are actually quite different models, esp in the home
market.

[C. E. White]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by john
Looks like the two best selling Lexus models are still modified
Camrys. That's understandable. GS is a zombie and essentially
nobody
wants the LS.

Not really 'modified Camrys', but cars based on a similar platform (like
Malibu, Bonneville, LeSabre) with different appointments, stretched
platforms, etc. They are actually quite different models, esp in the home
market.

You are kidding right - Put an ES350 and a Camry side by side. Only an
idiot would by the ES-350. Before the Venza, the RX-whatever at least
looked unique. Now it looks like an over-priced Vensa. Toyota is doing
the same stupid stuff GM did - trying to sell expensive luxury models
that are thinly diquised version of mass market sedans. People aren't
stupid (well at least many aren't).

Ed

Ed

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by C. E. White
You are kidding right - Put an ES350 and a Camry side by side. Only an
idiot would by the ES-350.

If he wants a feature set that's not available on the Camry, he will.

Think of the Lexus line as just another trim level. People buy mid- and
high-level Camry trim lines all the time. ES is just another notch
higher.

Post by C. E. White
Toyota is doing
the same stupid stuff GM did - trying to sell expensive luxury models
that are thinly diquised version of mass market sedans.

I have a flash for you: Toyota did that starting in 1990. Are you new
to the concept? None of this is news.

And it speaks to Toyota's (and Honda's, and Nissan's and GM's, and...)
efforts at (drum roll, please) price discrimination, which Toyota most
definitely did NOT invent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

Get over it. YOU wouldn't buy one, but people will.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by C. E. White
You are kidding right - Put an ES350 and a Camry side by side. Only an
idiot would by the ES-350.

If he wants a feature set that's not available on the Camry, he will.

The ES-300 is based on the Camry platform, but is a different car.
Even more so than the Cimmaron was different from a Cavalier...

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Think of the Lexus line as just another trim level. People buy mid- and
high-level Camry trim lines all the time. ES is just another notch
higher.

Post by C. E. White
Toyota is doing
the same stupid stuff GM did - trying to sell expensive luxury models
that are thinly diquised version of mass market sedans.

I have a flash for you: Toyota did that starting in 1990. Are you new
to the concept? None of this is news.
And it speaks to Toyota's (and Honda's, and Nissan's and GM's, and...)
efforts at (drum roll, please) price discrimination, which Toyota most
definitely did NOT invent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination
Get over it. YOU wouldn't buy one, but people will.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
The ES-300 is based on the Camry platform, but is a different car.

Keep smoking that crack, buddy.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
The ES-300 is based on the Camry platform, but is a different car.

Keep smoking that crack, buddy.

Look into the home model that's sold as the ES-300 here.
IIRC it was once sold here as a Corona MKII.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by john
Looks like the two best selling Lexus models are still modified
Camrys. That's understandable. GS is a zombie and essentially nobody
wants the LS.

Not really 'modified Camrys', but cars based on a similar platform (like
Malibu, Bonneville, LeSabre) with different appointments, stretched
platforms, etc. They are actually quite different models, esp in the home
market.

You are kidding right - Put an ES350 and a Camry side by side. Only an
idiot would by the ES-350. Before the Venza, the RX-whatever at least
looked unique. Now it looks like an over-priced Vensa. Toyota is doing
the same stupid stuff GM did - trying to sell expensive luxury models
that are thinly diquised version of mass market sedans. People aren't
stupid (well at least many aren't).
Ed
Ed

What about Infiniti, Lincoln, Buick, etc?

[C. E. White]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by C. E. White

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by john
Looks like the two best selling Lexus models are still modified
Camrys. That's understandable. GS is a zombie and essentially nobody
wants the LS.

Not really 'modified Camrys', but cars based on a similar platform (like
Malibu, Bonneville, LeSabre) with different appointments,
stretched
platforms, etc. They are actually quite different models, esp in
the
home
market.

You are kidding right - Put an ES350 and a Camry side by side. Only an
idiot would by the ES-350. Before the Venza, the RX-whatever at least
looked unique. Now it looks like an over-priced Vensa. Toyota is doing
the same stupid stuff GM did - trying to sell expensive luxury models
that are thinly diquised version of mass market sedans. People aren't
stupid (well at least many aren't).

What about Infiniti, Lincoln, Buick, etc?

Ditto...well except where there are actually different models from the
mass market models. Some Buicks don't have Chevrolet equivalents (or
at least that used to be true). And certainly some Infiniti models
don't have Nissan equivalents (at least in the US). As for
Lincoln...well I suppose the MKS is unique (or was before the revised
Taurus) and I could almost justify it instead of a Ford, but as for
the rest of the Lincoln line-up...I'll buy a Ford (or maybe a Mercury
since Ford and Mercrys are priced about the same). Only Cadillac seems
to be trying to differentiate their luxury cars from the mass model
versions (sell except for the ridiculous over priced Escalade).

Ed

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
What about Infiniti, Lincoln, Buick, etc?

Ditto...well except where there are actually different models from the
mass market models. Some Buicks don't have Chevrolet equivalents (or
at least that used to be true).

Like the Camry/ES300, they are built on similar platforms.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by john
Looks like the two best selling Lexus models are still modified
Camrys. That's understandable. GS is a zombie and essentially nobody
wants the LS.

The LS isn't a modified Camry.

Do you just babble on about random shit only when you're drunk, or do
you also do it when you're sober, too?

[DaveW]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:09:14 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
Looks like the two best selling Lexus models are still modified
Camrys. That's understandable. GS is a zombie and essentially nobody
wants the LS.

The LS isn't a modified Camry.
Do you just babble on about random shit only when you're drunk, or do
you also do it when you're sober, too?

It seems like he's resentful full time. A classic attention-seeking
troll. My guess is the reason he's so miserable isn't really anything
Lexus has done, but some restraining order keeps him from the real
object of his scorn - and I bet the guy or girl who ruined his life
probably drives a Lexus!

[Bob]

You seem to have ignored the IS line.

[C. E. White]

Post by Bob
You seem to have ignored the IS line.

So has almost everyone else.....

Ed

[Elder]

In article <h4mob5$fi9$***@news.eternal-september.org>, cewhite3
@mindspring.com says...

Post by C. E. White

Post by Bob
You seem to have ignored the IS line.

So has almost everyone else.....
Ed

Mines working fine, except after 9 years it needs a battery.
That is getting swapped on Friday.
Only the European 200 model and a bit low on grunt compared to the Saab
and Toyota turbos I've been used to in the past, but comfy and reliable
and still looks good after those 9 years.

[Bob]

In article <h4mob5$fi9$***@news.eternal-september.org>, cewhite3
@mindspring.com says...

Post by C. E. White

Post by Bob
You seem to have ignored the IS line.

So has almost everyone else.....
Ed

I was referring to an earlier post that said that none of the Lexus
line was selling well. On my drive to and from work each day, I see
more ISes than I do Acura TSXes or TLs and about the same number of
current generation MB C-classes.

[C. E. White]

Post by Elder
@mindspring.com says...

Post by C. E. White

Post by Bob
You seem to have ignored the IS line.

So has almost everyone else.....
Ed

I was referring to an earlier post that said that none of the Lexus
line was selling well. On my drive to and from work each day, I see
more ISes than I do Acura TSXes or TLs and about the same number of
current generation MB C-classes.

I can't ever remember seeing even one IS, but then maybe I just
thought it was another generic Toyota. I suppose they are fine cars,
but I don't see why anyone would buy something so dull for so much
money. I can get an equally competent dull car for a lot less.

Ed

[Zim Babwe]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Elder
@mindspring.com says...

Post by C. E. White

Post by Bob
You seem to have ignored the IS line.

So has almost everyone else.....
Ed

I was referring to an earlier post that said that none of the Lexus
line was selling well. On my drive to and from work each day, I see
more ISes than I do Acura TSXes or TLs and about the same number of
current generation MB C-classes.

I can't ever remember seeing even one IS, but then maybe I just
thought it was another generic Toyota. I suppose they are fine cars,
but I don't see why anyone would buy something so dull for so much
money. I can get an equally competent dull car for a lot less.
Ed

I guess the Lexus line is way out of your reach. For those of use who
can afford a Lexus, the IS is a great car.

[C. E. White]

Post by Zim Babwe
I guess the Lexus line is way out of your reach. For those of use
who can afford a Lexus, the IS is a great car.

At least for me, it is not a question of affording it. I honestly
can't see why anyone wants one. IF I wanted a performance/luxury car,
I'd go for a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a good
performing car with decent ergonomics. Toyota has a nack for making
cars large on the outside and cramped on the inside. But to be honest,
I am not a BMW sort of guy. I like a nice comfortable car with decent
performance, but I am not going to drive on the autobahn and I don't
need to impress anyone with how much money I can waste on a second
rate car.

Ed

[David Z]

Post by Zim Babwe
I guess the Lexus line is way out of your reach. For those of use who
can afford a Lexus, the IS is a great car.

At least for me, it is not a question of affording it. I honestly can't
see why anyone wants one. IF I wanted a performance/luxury car, I'd go for
a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a good performing car with
decent ergonomics. Toyota has a nack for making cars large on the outside
and cramped on the inside. But to be honest, I am not a BMW sort of guy. I
like a nice comfortable car with decent performance, but I am not going to
drive on the autobahn and I don't need to impress anyone with how much
money I can waste on a second rate car.
Ed

What do you drive, Ed?

[C. E. White]

Post by David Z

Post by C. E. White

Post by Zim Babwe
I guess the Lexus line is way out of your reach. For those of use
who can afford a Lexus, the IS is a great car.

At least for me, it is not a question of affording it. I honestly
can't see why anyone wants one. IF I wanted a performance/luxury
car, I'd go for a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a
good performing car with decent ergonomics. Toyota has a nack for
making cars large on the outside and cramped on the inside. But to
be honest, I am not a BMW sort of guy. I like a nice comfortable
car with decent performance, but I am not going to drive on the
autobahn and I don't need to impress anyone with how much money I
can waste on a second rate car.
Ed

What do you drive, Ed?

A 3 year old Ford Fusion at the moment (I am very happy with this car
V6/AWD/SEL). Ialso have a relatively new F150 that replaced a Nissan
Frontier that I finally couldn't stand anymore. I have owned lots of
differ things over the years: Here is the list as best I can remember,
in the order i owned them:

1972 Ford Pinto - bought new
1975 Datsun 280Z - bought new when I graduated from college, drove it
for 3 years and 50k miles. It had numerous minor problems (clutch
mechanism, fuel injection, rust) but i loved it jsut the same.
1962 Austin Healey Sprite - used, bought in pieces, sold it when I
left Raleigh for a job
1968 Austin Heakey Sprite - used, it ran, but I never licenced it
1978 Ford Fairmont Futura Coupe - bought new - this car was dead
reliable and fast, but I hated it
1972 Ford Pinto - actually I reacquired my original Pinto from my
sister to use as an autocross car - it was a great cheap car
1974 Jensen-Healey - bought used. Eventually I grew tired of the
buzzzing on long trips and sold it. It required constant maintenace.
1973 Ford Pinto - bought used when I wrecked the 74 JH, drove it for a
few months, then sold it to a co-worker. His kids drove it for almost
8 more years
1978 Ford Courier - Gift from my Father (used). It was a horrible
truck.....
1974 Jensen-Healey - a rolling wreck that I basically stored for a
decade
1981 Plymouth Relaint - Drove great, when it wasn't broken. I traded
it after 9 months of ownership
1981 Audi Coupe - I loved this car, but for some reason only kept it
for a couple of years (brain fade)
1983 Mazda 626 - Never should have bought this car. I hated it from
day 2, but my Sister drove it for 8 years
1978 Ford Fiesta - acquired from my Sister in a swap for the Mazda - I
loved this car, except no A/C
1975 Jensen-Healey - bought used, drove for a couple of years. Sold it
when I got married (should have kept the car instead)
1986 Mercury Sable - a terrific car that I drove for 10 years and
147,000 miles. A co-worker drove it for another 100,000 miles.
1983 Toyota Cressida - it came with my ex-wife. It was a rolling turd.
Crappy interior, cramped, bad plastic, bad paint, rust problems,
horrible A/C. This was the worst POS I ever had to drive. It was even
more unreliable than the Plymouth Reliant K, but drove horribly. I
can't see how Toyota survied build crap like this.
1986 Ford Ranger - Gift from my Father. Eventually destroyed by a
falling tree
1989 Ford Taurus Wagon - Bought new, left with the ex-wife
1992 Ford F150 - Bought new. Drove it for 14 years. Great truck.
1996 Ford Explorer - Bought new, but after a year I decided to move up
to an Expedition, sold the Explorer for within $2K of what it cost me.
1997 Ford Expedition - Kept for 5 years and 150,000 miles. Great
truck, two problems in 150,000 miles (coil pack at 100k, alternator at
120K)
2001 Ford Mustang GT Convertible - Bought new. I loved this car, but
decided it had to go when my son turned 16. 40K miles with one problem
(oil leak, fixed under warranty)
2003 Ford Expedition -Bought new. As good as the 1997, but I only kept
it for 3 years and 100,000 miles. I decided I no longer needed a big
SUV.
2003 Saturn Vue - I bought this new to replace the Mustang. I intended
it to be my Son's car. After he destroyed the transmission (CVT -
under warranty) and the air bag assembly (beating on the horn), I
dumped it.
2004 Ford Thunderbird - Bought barely used. I loved this car. For some
crazy reason I only lept it for 2 years. On the plus side, it never
broke and I sold it for almost what I paid for it. I'd really like to
have another....
2006 Nissan Frontier - my attempt at downsizing trucks - the truck had
plenty of power, but it was uncomfortbale inside. It had a few
problems. After 3 years and 70k miles I finally got tired of being
crammed into it and traded it off.

1996 Pontiac Firebird - Bought used. My son talked me into buying this
POS to replace the Saturn. It had the little V6 and could barely get
out of it's own way. It had so many problems that I never worried
about him geting in trouble driving it.
2006 Mustang V6 Coupe - Bought new. I finally had to get my son a
reliable car. V6 Mustang Coupes were dirt cheap (less than $16K new).
He was happy, I was happy, until he started getting speeding
tickets.....live and learn.
2002 Mercury Grand Marquis. This was my Mothers car. I thought I would
keep it after I sold the Thunderbird. After 3 months of drving it, I
couldn't take it anymore and traded it on a Fusion.
2007 Ford Fusion - Bought new. This is my current car. 55K miles
without a problem. Very comfortable. Performance is decent. Fuel
economy could be better.
2008 Mazda 3 - Bought this new for my older son to drive when he
started staying with me. It is amazingly roomy inside. My Son
compalins that the A/C is not strong enough and that he deosn't get 35
mpg. Oh well....
2009 F150 SuperCab - after suffering in the Nissan Frontier for three
eyars, I finally got fed up and traded it on this F150. It is so much
better it is hard to believe I ever talked myself into the Frontier.
Both have 4WD. The Frontier was a V6 and if you were racing between
stoplights it was awesome. However the gas mileage of the Frontier was
less than 1 mpg better than the much larger (and far more comfortable)
F150. The F150 can haul much more, rides much better, and so far
hasn't had a single problem (well except for a flat tire last Wed).

In addition to this list, there are numerous other "family vehicels" -
4 Toyotas, 2 VWs, numerous older Ford Trucks, a Freestyle, several
LTDs, Dodge Truck, 5 different Ford Rangers, etc. I am the family car
guy, so I get to work on all of them. If I was rating brands, I think
Plymouth/Dodge would be the worst and Ford the best. SOmething like..

Worst to best - Chrysler, GM, VW, Mazda, Nissan, Toyota, Ford. The
recent Toyotas have been much more reliable than the '83 Cressida, but
they still have horrible ergonomics, bland styling, and drive like
riding lawn mowers. Nissans have a little more style but I don't think
they are as reliable. I mostly don't like Mazdas becasue of the '83
626 and the Ford Courier (really a Mazda). No one in my family will
buy a VW for any reason, even though I liked the Audi. Both of my
Sisters suffered through VWs - they drove great but were unreliable.
The SO's daugher has a Jetta and it is hated as well. Two out of two
GM products were crap. No way I'll buy a Chrysler, or a Fiat badged as
a Chrysler. But to be honest, the difference from worst to best in my
list aren't all that great. I'd even consider a new Camaro....

If I was going to buy a car right now, at this moment - it would
prbably be a Nissan 370Z. I like them. I am afraid to go near a Nissan
car lot becasue I'd be tempeted to buy one. Next choice would be a
2010 Taurus (especailly the SHO, but it is too over-priced ...I
think). I also spend a lot of time looking at used 2004/2005
Thunderbirds. I miss my 2004, especially in the spring and fall. I do
wonder about some the Korean cars too. The Genesis looks pretty good
for a good price.

Oh well, for now I need to ride with what I have.

[David Z]

Post by C. E. White

Post by David Z

Post by Zim Babwe
I guess the Lexus line is way out of your reach. For those of use who
can afford a Lexus, the IS is a great car.

At least for me, it is not a question of affording it. I honestly can't
see why anyone wants one. IF I wanted a performance/luxury car, I'd go
for a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a good performing car
with decent ergonomics. Toyota has a nack for making cars large on the
outside and cramped on the inside. But to be honest, I am not a BMW sort
of guy. I like a nice comfortable car with decent performance, but I am
not going to drive on the autobahn and I don't need to impress anyone
with how much money I can waste on a second rate car.
Ed

What do you drive, Ed?

A 3 year old Ford Fusion at the moment (I am very happy with this car
V6/AWD/SEL). Ialso have a relatively new F150 that replaced a Nissan
Frontier that I finally couldn't stand anymore. I have owned lots of
differ things over the years: Here is the list as best I can remember, in
1972 Ford Pinto - bought new
1975 Datsun 280Z - bought new when I graduated from college, drove it for
3 years and 50k miles. It had numerous minor problems (clutch mechanism,
fuel injection, rust) but i loved it jsut the same.
1962 Austin Healey Sprite - used, bought in pieces, sold it when I left
Raleigh for a job
1968 Austin Heakey Sprite - used, it ran, but I never licenced it
1978 Ford Fairmont Futura Coupe - bought new - this car was dead reliable
and fast, but I hated it
1972 Ford Pinto - actually I reacquired my original Pinto from my sister
to use as an autocross car - it was a great cheap car
1974 Jensen-Healey - bought used. Eventually I grew tired of the buzzzing
on long trips and sold it. It required constant maintenace.
1973 Ford Pinto - bought used when I wrecked the 74 JH, drove it for a few
months, then sold it to a co-worker. His kids drove it for almost 8 more
years
1978 Ford Courier - Gift from my Father (used). It was a horrible
truck.....
1974 Jensen-Healey - a rolling wreck that I basically stored for a decade
1981 Plymouth Relaint - Drove great, when it wasn't broken. I traded it
after 9 months of ownership
1981 Audi Coupe - I loved this car, but for some reason only kept it for a
couple of years (brain fade)
1983 Mazda 626 - Never should have bought this car. I hated it from day 2,
but my Sister drove it for 8 years
1978 Ford Fiesta - acquired from my Sister in a swap for the Mazda - I
loved this car, except no A/C
1975 Jensen-Healey - bought used, drove for a couple of years. Sold it
when I got married (should have kept the car instead)
1986 Mercury Sable - a terrific car that I drove for 10 years and 147,000
miles. A co-worker drove it for another 100,000 miles.
1983 Toyota Cressida - it came with my ex-wife. It was a rolling turd.
Crappy interior, cramped, bad plastic, bad paint, rust problems, horrible
A/C. This was the worst POS I ever had to drive. It was even more
unreliable than the Plymouth Reliant K, but drove horribly. I can't see
how Toyota survied build crap like this.
1986 Ford Ranger - Gift from my Father. Eventually destroyed by a falling
tree
1989 Ford Taurus Wagon - Bought new, left with the ex-wife
1992 Ford F150 - Bought new. Drove it for 14 years. Great truck.
1996 Ford Explorer - Bought new, but after a year I decided to move up to
an Expedition, sold the Explorer for within $2K of what it cost me.
1997 Ford Expedition - Kept for 5 years and 150,000 miles. Great truck,
two problems in 150,000 miles (coil pack at 100k, alternator at 120K)
2001 Ford Mustang GT Convertible - Bought new. I loved this car, but
decided it had to go when my son turned 16. 40K miles with one problem
(oil leak, fixed under warranty)
2003 Ford Expedition -Bought new. As good as the 1997, but I only kept it
for 3 years and 100,000 miles. I decided I no longer needed a big SUV.
2003 Saturn Vue - I bought this new to replace the Mustang. I intended it
to be my Son's car. After he destroyed the transmission (CVT - under
warranty) and the air bag assembly (beating on the horn), I dumped it.
2004 Ford Thunderbird - Bought barely used. I loved this car. For some
crazy reason I only lept it for 2 years. On the plus side, it never broke
and I sold it for almost what I paid for it. I'd really like to have
another....
2006 Nissan Frontier - my attempt at downsizing trucks - the truck had
plenty of power, but it was uncomfortbale inside. It had a few problems.
After 3 years and 70k miles I finally got tired of being crammed into it
and traded it off.
1996 Pontiac Firebird - Bought used. My son talked me into buying this POS
to replace the Saturn. It had the little V6 and could barely get out of
it's own way. It had so many problems that I never worried about him
geting in trouble driving it.
2006 Mustang V6 Coupe - Bought new. I finally had to get my son a reliable
car. V6 Mustang Coupes were dirt cheap (less than $16K new). He was happy,
I was happy, until he started getting speeding tickets.....live and learn.
2002 Mercury Grand Marquis. This was my Mothers car. I thought I would
keep it after I sold the Thunderbird. After 3 months of drving it, I
couldn't take it anymore and traded it on a Fusion.
2007 Ford Fusion - Bought new. This is my current car. 55K miles without a
problem. Very comfortable. Performance is decent. Fuel economy could be
better.
2008 Mazda 3 - Bought this new for my older son to drive when he started
staying with me. It is amazingly roomy inside. My Son compalins that the
A/C is not strong enough and that he deosn't get 35 mpg. Oh well....
2009 F150 SuperCab - after suffering in the Nissan Frontier for three
eyars, I finally got fed up and traded it on this F150. It is so much
better it is hard to believe I ever talked myself into the Frontier. Both
have 4WD. The Frontier was a V6 and if you were racing between stoplights
it was awesome. However the gas mileage of the Frontier was less than 1
mpg better than the much larger (and far more comfortable) F150. The F150
can haul much more, rides much better, and so far hasn't had a single
problem (well except for a flat tire last Wed).
In addition to this list, there are numerous other "family vehicels" - 4
Toyotas, 2 VWs, numerous older Ford Trucks, a Freestyle, several LTDs,
Dodge Truck, 5 different Ford Rangers, etc. I am the family car guy, so I
get to work on all of them. If I was rating brands, I think Plymouth/Dodge
would be the worst and Ford the best. SOmething like..
Worst to best - Chrysler, GM, VW, Mazda, Nissan, Toyota, Ford. The recent
Toyotas have been much more reliable than the '83 Cressida, but they still
have horrible ergonomics, bland styling, and drive like riding lawn
mowers. Nissans have a little more style but I don't think they are as
reliable. I mostly don't like Mazdas becasue of the '83 626 and the Ford
Courier (really a Mazda). No one in my family will buy a VW for any
reason, even though I liked the Audi. Both of my Sisters suffered through
VWs - they drove great but were unreliable. The SO's daugher has a Jetta
and it is hated as well. Two out of two GM products were crap. No way I'll
buy a Chrysler, or a Fiat badged as a Chrysler. But to be honest, the
difference from worst to best in my list aren't all that great. I'd even
consider a new Camaro....
If I was going to buy a car right now, at this moment - it would prbably
be a Nissan 370Z. I like them. I am afraid to go near a Nissan car lot
becasue I'd be tempeted to buy one. Next choice would be a 2010 Taurus
(especailly the SHO, but it is too over-priced ...I think). I also spend a
lot of time looking at used 2004/2005 Thunderbirds. I miss my 2004,
especially in the spring and fall. I do wonder about some the Korean cars
too. The Genesis looks pretty good for a good price.
Oh well, for now I need to ride with what I have.

I see your problem now. You're very opinionated in your tastes and find it
difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend that other people might have
different tastes than your own.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by David Z
I see your problem now. You're very opinionated in your tastes and find it
difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend that other people might have
different tastes than your own.

Look in the mirror, z boy. That defines you perfectly.

[David Z]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by David Z
I see your problem now. You're very opinionated in your tastes and find it
difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend that other people might have
different tastes than your own.

Look in the mirror, z boy. That defines you perfectly.

Actually, when I wrote that, I was thinking that I could have just as easily
said that about you. What a hoot!

[C. E. White]

Post by David Z
I see your problem now. You're very opinionated in your tastes and
find it difficult, if not impossible, to comprehend that other
people might have different tastes than your own.

I don't see anything wrong with having an opinion. You haev yours, I
have mine. I certainly understand that people have different tastes.
Is there something wrong with expressing my opinion? Do you only want
to hear the "Toyota is awesome" mantra?

I find somethings illogical. Paying more for Toyotas becasue they say
"Lexus" is one of those illogical things. I can comprehend buying the
LS Lexus since they don't sell the Toyota equivalent here (I think in
Japan it is the Toyota Crown Majesta), but I'll never understand the
appeal of the ES350 (thinly disquised Camry), GX (4Runner in drag), LX
(Land Crusier with glitz), or the RX line (since Toyota now sells the
Venza). Without those models (particualrly the EX and RX) there would
be no Lexus, since all the other models together don't sell enough
cars to justify separate dealerships.

Ed

[C. E. White]

Post by C. E. White
I find somethings illogical. Paying more for Toyotas becasue they
say "Lexus" is one of those illogical things. I can comprehend
buying the LS Lexus since they don't sell the Toyota equivalent here
(I think in Japan it is the Toyota Crown Majesta), but I'll never
understand the appeal of the ES350 (thinly disquised Camry), GX
(4Runner in drag), LX (Land Crusier with glitz), or the RX line
(since Toyota now sells the Venza). Without those models
(particualrly the EX and RX) there would be no Lexus, since all the
other models together don't sell enough cars to justify separate
dealerships.
Ed

Typo alert - I mean ES, not EX....

Ed

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by C. E. White
I find somethings illogical. Paying more for Toyotas becasue they say
"Lexus" is one of those illogical things.

True, if you truly decide it on that basis.

But too often, you can't get the trim level/feature sets on the Toyota
Camry that you can get on the Lexus ES. That's just how Toyota does
things. The ES is, by and large, a higher trim level/feature set.

So, to get the feature set you want, you are forced to go to Lexus.
It's not just because there's an L on the back of the thing. If Toyota
offered the exact same feature set, I'd buy it. But they don't, so if I
want that feature set, I'm forced to take the L with it.

[C. E. White]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by C. E. White
I find somethings illogical. Paying more for Toyotas becasue they say
"Lexus" is one of those illogical things.

True, if you truly decide it on that basis.
But too often, you can't get the trim level/feature sets on the Toyota
Camry that you can get on the Lexus ES. That's just how Toyota does
things. The ES is, by and large, a higher trim level/feature set.
So, to get the feature set you want, you are forced to go to Lexus.
It's not just because there's an L on the back of the thing. If Toyota
offered the exact same feature set, I'd buy it. But they don't, so if I
want that feature set, I'm forced to take the L with it.

Unfortunately, the "L" adds thousands more than the real value of the
upgrades. If people refused to pay thousands extra for what is
essentially a Camry with a higher trim package, Toyota would quit
screwing them. I understand the desire for nicer appointments. I don't
understand the willingness to pay thousands more for a few hundred
dollars worth of fluff. Just becasue you can afford it, doesn't make
it logical. I guess PT Barnum was right.

Ed

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
But too often, you can't get the trim level/feature sets on the Toyota
Camry that you can get on the Lexus ES. That's just how Toyota does
things. The ES is, by and large, a higher trim level/feature set.
So, to get the feature set you want, you are forced to go to Lexus.
It's not just because there's an L on the back of the thing. If Toyota
offered the exact same feature set, I'd buy it. But they don't, so if I
want that feature set, I'm forced to take the L with it.

Unfortunately, the "L" adds thousands more than the real value of the
upgrades.

Only to bad negotiators.

Post by C. E. White
If people refused to pay thousands extra for what is
essentially a Camry with a higher trim package, Toyota would quit
screwing them.

Everything's negotiable. Toyota isn't screwing anyone. People who want
those trim packages are apparently willing to pay a price that YOU'RE
not willing to pay; that doesn't mean they're being screwed. It just
means you're envious of them and their ability to get that stuff.

[DaveW]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 08:17:55 -0400, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White
Unfortunately, the "L" adds thousands more than the real value of the
upgrades.

And in a USA Today poll of 100 automotive journalists from across the
country, they list the Lexus GS as the best luxury sedan, dollar for
dollar.

My guess is they're more objective and more informed than you are.

[David Z]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by C. E. White
I find somethings illogical. Paying more for Toyotas becasue they say
"Lexus" is one of those illogical things.

True, if you truly decide it on that basis.
But too often, you can't get the trim level/feature sets on the Toyota
Camry that you can get on the Lexus ES. That's just how Toyota does
things. The ES is, by and large, a higher trim level/feature set.
So, to get the feature set you want, you are forced to go to Lexus.
It's not just because there's an L on the back of the thing. If Toyota
offered the exact same feature set, I'd buy it. But they don't, so if I
want that feature set, I'm forced to take the L with it.

Unfortunately, the "L" adds thousands more than the real value of the
upgrades. If people refused to pay thousands extra for what is essentially
a Camry with a higher trim package, Toyota would quit screwing them. I
understand the desire for nicer appointments. I don't understand the
willingness to pay thousands more for a few hundred dollars worth of
fluff. Just becasue you can afford it, doesn't make it logical. I guess PT
Barnum was right.
Ed

In addition to repeatedly topping customer satisfaction and reliability
surveys, Lexus cars have repeatedly won surveys indicating best value for
the dollar and the lowest cost of ownership in their class. Can you say
"Sour Grapes", Ed?


http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/784/best-cars-for-the-money/

Best Cars for the Money
By Jamie Page Deaton


The Best Car for the Money awards use data from U.S. News' online automotive
rankings (at www.rankingsandreviews.com) to find cars that are among the
best in their class. The rankings are based on the collective opinion of the
automotive press, which helps to eliminate subjectivity and elevate expert
opinion about each car. The awards also take initial price into account, but
more importantly, they incorporate the five-year total cost of owning the
car. Using data from IntelliChoice, an industry leader in determining new
car values and ownership costs, the awards include how much buyers can
expect to spend on maintenance and fuel, as well as how much of a hit
they'll take from the car's depreciation. As a result, the awards tell you
which cars are the best for your money over the long haul. Read more on the
awards methodology.

The Winners
Across 14 new car classes, the clear winner is Toyota. Five Toyotas won Best
Car for the Money in their classes, with Lexus, Toyota's luxury marquee,
pulling in another three. Chevrolet and Mazda each claim two awards and
Honda and Korean upstart Hyundai each claim one. Five of the award winners
are even available as hybrids - most of which are also great values.

Despite ranging in size from the tiny Honda Fit to the hulking Chevrolet
Tahoe, the winners have a lot in common. They share a high level of build
quality that makes for worry-free and low-cost ownership. One of the reasons
Toyota models take so many of the awards is because of their bulletproof
quality. That not only lowers the cost of maintaining Toyotas -- it means
that they retain value better than most other cars.

The winners have something else in common: they are favorites in the
automotive press. Not because they tear up drag strips or star in music
videos, but because they are extremely livable. Each winner occupies an
automotive sweet spot that makes it an attractive choice for the vast
majority of car shoppers. Take the Lexus ES, the Best Upscale Car for the
Money: it doesn't drive as sharp as the BMW 3-Series and doesn't look as
sharp as the Mercedes Benz C-Class, but taken as a total package, it's very
comfortable to drive and easy to live with on a daily basis -- not to
mention easier on your wallet.

Some winners, like the Mazda5, the Best Compact Crossover for the Money,
take the best of what class leaders like the Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V have
to offer, but pack in an appealing lower price. The case of the Hyundai
Elantra, the Best Compact Car for the Money, proves what many have been
saying for years: Honda and Toyota should watch their backs because Hyundai
is making not just economical cars, but very good ones.

Time to Buy
It's a confusing time to be shopping for a new car. While there are some
incredible deals to be had, many of those incentives are for cars that don't
offer a lot of value in the long term. Worse, a car with thousands of
dollars in cash-back offers may be tough to drive, and laden with features
you don't need.

The U.S. News Best Car for the Money awards cut through fog surrounding the
auto industry to point out the cars that combine value with day-to-day
livability. As scary as it is to part with thousands of dollars in this
economy, by sticking with the cars that offer maximum satisfaction at a
minimal cost, your money will go further and your driving will be happier.
And, who knows? Happy new car buyers may be just the stimulus this economy
needs.

2009 Award Winners
Toyota Camry
Best Midsize Car for the Money

Honda Fit
Best Subcompact Car for the Money

Mazda Mazda5
Best Compact Crossover for the Money

Hyundai Elantra
Best Compact Car for the Money

Toyota Highlander
Best Midsize Crossover for the Money

Lexus RX
Best Luxury Crossover for the Money

Chevrolet Tahoe
Best Full Size SUV for the Money

Mazda Miata
Best Sports Car for the Money

Lexus GS
Best Luxury Car for the Money

Toyota Tacoma
Best Compact Truck for the Money

Chevy Silverado
Best Full Size Truck for the Money

Toyota Sienna
Best Minivan for the Money

Toyota Avalon
Best Large Car for the Money

Lexus ES
Best Upscale Car for the Money

[Clive]

Post by C. E. White
At least for me, it is not a question of affording it. I honestly
can't see why anyone wants one. IF I wanted a performance/luxury car,
I'd go for a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a good
performing car with decent ergonomics. Toyota has a nack for making
cars large on the outside and cramped on the inside. But to be honest,
I am not a BMW sort of guy. I like a nice comfortable car with decent
performance, but I am not going to drive on the autobahn and I don't
need to impress anyone with how much money I can waste on a second
rate car.

Between a Lexus (that we get in the UK) and a BMW, the BMW is the second
rate car.

[C. E. White]

Post by Clive

Post by C. E. White
At least for me, it is not a question of affording it. I honestly
can't see why anyone wants one. IF I wanted a performance/luxury car,
I'd go for a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a good
performing car with decent ergonomics. Toyota has a nack for making
cars large on the outside and cramped on the inside. But to be
honest,
I am not a BMW sort of guy. I like a nice comfortable car with
decent
performance, but I am not going to drive on the autobahn and I don't
need to impress anyone with how much money I can waste on a second
rate car.

Between a Lexus (that we get in the UK) and a BMW, the BMW is the
second rate car.

But yet BMWs far outsell Lexus. In my mind, the only reason to buy a
car like a BMW or Lexus in the US is to impress your friends. And at
leat to me, a BMW is a lot more impressive. No matter how they spin
it, a Lexus is just a Toyota. Not that that is a bad thing, but not an
impressive thing either. If a Toyota is what you like, I can't see
paying thousands extra for a Toyota becasue it is called a Lexus.

Ed

[Zim Babwe]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Clive

Post by C. E. White
At least for me, it is not a question of affording it. I honestly
can't see why anyone wants one. IF I wanted a performance/luxury car,
I'd go for a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a good
performing car with decent ergonomics. Toyota has a nack for making
cars large on the outside and cramped on the inside. But to be honest,
I am not a BMW sort of guy. I like a nice comfortable car with decent
performance, but I am not going to drive on the autobahn and I don't
need to impress anyone with how much money I can waste on a second
rate car.

Between a Lexus (that we get in the UK) and a BMW, the BMW is the
second rate car.

But yet BMWs far outsell Lexus. In my mind, the only reason to buy a
car like a BMW or Lexus in the US is to impress your friends. And at
leat to me, a BMW is a lot more impressive. No matter how they spin
it, a Lexus is just a Toyota. Not that that is a bad thing, but not an
impressive thing either. If a Toyota is what you like, I can't see
paying thousands extra for a Toyota becasue it is called a Lexus.
Ed

Then you should never get a Lexus. You are paying for luxury and nice
creature features.

[C. E. White]

Post by Zim Babwe
Then you should never get a Lexus. You are paying for luxury and
nice creature features.

In the case of the ES you are mostly paying for slightly better
plastic trim, a little more sound deadening, and an "L" on the trunk
lid. The V6 Lexus has essentially the same performance as the V6
Camry, is a little quieter, but has little less interior room becasue
of the puffed up seats and slightly worse handling becasue of the
softer suspension. BUT most importantly, it costs over $6K more....a
fools bargin if you ask me.

Ed

[DaveW]

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:11:58 -0400, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White
But yet BMWs far outsell Lexus.

This is simoply not true.

Post by C. E. White
In my mind, the only reason to buy a car like a BMW or Lexus in the US is to impress your friends.

This is flat out ludicrous. Both companies make nice cars, and they
cost more than other cars because of that. Have you ever driven a BMW
or Lexus? If you can't appreciate the difference between a BMW or
Lexus and a Ford Focus, and think people only buy them to impress
people, you're an idiot.

Post by C. E. White
And at leat to me, a BMW is a lot more impressive. No matter how they spin
it, a Lexus is just a Toyota. Not that that is a bad thing, but not an
impressive thing either. If a Toyota is what you like, I can't see
paying thousands extra for a Toyota becasue it is called a Lexus.

Just because a couple of Lexus models are based on Toyota platforms
doesn't mean a Lexus is a Toyota. You pay more because you get more.
Is an Acura a Honda, too? Do you see no difference between Infiniti
and Nissan?

Upscale brands come with more standard equipment and better
performance. They cost more for reasons that are obvious to anyone but
you. If you can't afford them, or don't feel they're worth it, doesn't
mean that the people who do are getting fleeced. You get what you pay
for.

[C. E. White]

Post by DaveW
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:11:58 -0400, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White
But yet BMWs far outsell Lexus.

This is simoply not true.

In the US, Lexus and BMW sell about the same number of vehicles.
However, worldwide there is no comparison. BMW outsells the Lexus
brand more than 2 to 1.

Post by DaveW

Post by C. E. White
In my mind, the only reason to buy a car like a BMW or Lexus in the
US is to impress your friends.

This is flat out ludicrous. Both companies make nice cars, and they
cost more than other cars because of that. Have you ever driven a BMW
or Lexus? If you can't appreciate the difference between a BMW or
Lexus and a Ford Focus, and think people only buy them to impress
people, you're an idiot.

Post by C. E. White
And at leat to me, a BMW is a lot more impressive. No matter how they spin
it, a Lexus is just a Toyota. Not that that is a bad thing, but not an
impressive thing either. If a Toyota is what you like, I can't see
paying thousands extra for a Toyota becasue it is called a Lexus.

Just because a couple of Lexus models are based on Toyota platforms
doesn't mean a Lexus is a Toyota. You pay more because you get more.
Is an Acura a Honda, too? Do you see no difference between Infiniti
and Nissan?

The Lexus models sold here are Toyotas models in other markets. Ditto
for Infiniti. I defnintely think an Acura is a Honda although Honda
has done a better job of differentiating the Acura models from the
related Honda models, but underneath, they are still closely related
while the prices are not....

Ed

Post by DaveW
Upscale brands come with more standard equipment and better
performance. They cost more for reasons that are obvious to anyone but
you. If you can't afford them, or don't feel they're worth it,
doesn't
mean that the people who do are getting fleeced. You get what you pay
for.

[Clive]

Post by C. E. White
But yet BMWs far outsell Lexus. In my mind, the only reason to buy a
car like a BMW or Lexus in the US is to impress your friends. And at
leat to me, a BMW is a lot more impressive. No matter how they spin
it, a Lexus is just a Toyota. Not that that is a bad thing, but not an
impressive thing either. If a Toyota is what you like, I can't see
paying thousands extra for a Toyota becasue it is called a Lexus.

Our cars may not be the same as yours, for instance,
Lexus cars are always the most reliable car in our "Which?" magazine
surveys (a magazine that accepts no adverts and works alongside European
governments trades standards offices).
To quote the magazine, "Japanese aren't just among the most reliable
brands, they are the most reliable brands".
Just a quick look conforms that there is no connection between the Lexus
IS brands in the UK and the Toyota Camry.

[Elder]

Post by Clive
Just a quick look conforms that there is no connection between the Lexus
IS brands in the UK and the Toyota Camry.

In the US, the ES is a FWD equivalent model and runs along side the IS
RWD model and is indeed based on the Camry. We never got it here, so I
have never been able to see the spec differences/similarities.

But I love my IS even if it is a bit underpowered compared to the Toyota
and SAAB turbos I have gotten used to, and the loverly big LS400/Celsior
I used stroll arround in.

[Zim Babwe]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Zim Babwe
I guess the Lexus line is way out of your reach. For those of use
who can afford a Lexus, the IS is a great car.

At least for me, it is not a question of affording it. I honestly
can't see why anyone wants one. IF I wanted a performance/luxury car,
I'd go for a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a good
performing car with decent ergonomics. Toyota has a nack for making
cars large on the outside and cramped on the inside. But to be honest,
I am not a BMW sort of guy. I like a nice comfortable car with decent
performance, but I am not going to drive on the autobahn and I don't
need to impress anyone with how much money I can waste on a second
rate car.
Ed

Sure BMW if you want to spend tons of money on repairs and when it's
time for resale, BMW tanks just like Infiniti. On the other hand, Lexus
retains more of it's value.

Drive wise, the two are very different. BMW is more sporty and Lexus
more luxury.

I drive a new Lexus IS and I am not out to impress anyone. I can afford
the vehicle and enjoy it.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by C. E. White
IF I wanted a performance/luxury car,
I'd go for a BMW. At least the Germans know how to make a good
performing car with decent ergonomics.

A car that requires heavy maintenance just to stay on the road, and
which still falls apart regularly--except they've managed to make it
expensive to repair.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by C. E. White
Toyota has a nack for making
cars large on the outside and cramped on the inside.

You have that backwards.

Go look at a Prius.

[Clive]

In message

Post by john
The GS, notes consultant Hall, has been a very good sedan, but it
takes on neither the BMW 3 Series nor the Mercedes E Class in size,
performance, or price.

True, but it beats both German brands hand down for reliability. Of
course, if Americans change cars every two or three years on a rotating
contract, then reliability isn't really important, but over here in the
UK where cars tend to be bought outright and kept for longer, the
situation changes.