$20,000 over sticker for Chevy Volt is simply supply and demand

[john]

"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.

That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.

If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."

Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/Dealers-extra-charge-for-Volt-is-simply-supply-and-demand#ixzz0w4xWT0ce

[Spong]

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."
Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/Dealers-extra-charge-for-Volt-is-simply-supply-and-demand#ixzz0w4xWT0ce

What a guy. Another reason for me to pick a chevy salesman to kick
his ass at random.

[Sharx35]

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."
Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/Dealers-extra-charge-for-Volt-is-simply-supply-and-demand#ixzz0w4xWT0ce

Proving that there is a silly sucker born every minute. HELL will frigging
freeze over before I pay ANYTHING over sticker for anything.

[News]

Post by Sharx35

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."
Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/Dealers-extra-charge-for-Volt-is-simply-supply-and-demand#ixzz0w4xWT0ce

Proving that there is a silly sucker born every minute. HELL will
frigging freeze over before I pay ANYTHING over sticker for anything.

P.T. Barnum was right.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Sharx35
Proving that there is a silly sucker born every minute. HELL will
frigging freeze over before I pay ANYTHING over sticker for anything.

Personally, I think the Volt is overpriced as it is. I wouldn't pay more
than $30K for one, and would probably pass it up even at that price.

[Al Falfa]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Sharx35
Proving that there is a silly sucker born every minute. HELL will
frigging freeze over before I pay ANYTHING over sticker for anything.

Personally, I think the Volt is overpriced as it is. I wouldn't pay more
than $30K for one, and would probably pass it up even at that price.
--
Check out the Hot Cocoa Party
<http://www.hotcocoaparty.info>

Anyone know how handles -30F? At that temperature the all-electric range
is probably nil.

[ben91932]

Anyone know how handles -30F?   At that temperature the all-electric range
is probably nil.

I'm not sure about nil. Lion batteries lose about 15% from 65f to 0f,
more below that I'm sure.
The Volt, like the Prius has active battery temperature control. All
electric range will undoubtably drop, as it takes power to warm the
batteries and the car, defroster etc.
To me its an issue, not a deal breaker.
Ben

[in2dadark]

Post by Sharx35

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."
Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/D...

Proving that there is a silly sucker born every minute. HELL will frigging
freeze over before I pay ANYTHING over sticker for anything.

Especially now.

[Virgil Skankman]

It's still a Chevy. By the way john, there is no way you could afford a
Chevy or a Toyota! LOL!

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by john
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.

And foolish, 'ecology minded' Liberal Early Adopters will gladly pony up
the extra money. But, none of the excess goes to GM, it stays in the
pocket of the dealer who makes a nice fat profit on it.

The owner of that dealership must be a Republican. Or, maybe just a
hypocrite Democrat along the liines of Rangle, Kerry, Gore, et al.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
The owner of that dealership must be a Republican. Or, maybe just a
hypocrite Democrat along the liines of Rangle, Kerry, Gore, et al.

So which Democrats aren't hypocrites, in your opinion?

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
The owner of that dealership must be a Republican. Or, maybe just a
hypocrite Democrat along the liines of Rangle, Kerry, Gore, et al.

So which Democrats aren't hypocrites, in your opinion?

I'm sure there must be one or two. Nancy Pelosi, perhaps?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[n***@wt.net]

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."

I wouldn't buy one at half price.. The 40 mile wonder.. :/
Doesn't go far enough to do me any good..
I really don't see how they will sell very many of them.
A few moovee stars and tree huggers might buy a few,
but for the general driver they strike me as a fairly
useless vehicle. And you gotta plug them doggies in
somewhere.

[Michelle Steiner]

In article

Post by n***@wt.net
I wouldn't buy one at half price.. The 40 mile wonder.. :/
Doesn't go far enough to do me any good..

That's 40 miles on just the initial battery charge; after that, the
gasoline motor kicks in to recharge the battery, and you'll keep going for
so long as there is gas in the tank. And when the tank runs low, you
simply put more gas in it.

It's not like the Nissan Leaf, which is battery only.

Regardless, it's priced out of my affordable range.

[n***@wt.net]

Post by Michelle Steiner
In article

I wouldn't buy one at half price.. The 40 mile wonder..  :/
Doesn't go far enough to do me any good..

That's 40 miles on just the initial battery charge; after that, the
gasoline motor kicks in to recharge the battery, and you'll keep going for
so long as there is gas in the tank.  And when the tank runs low, you
simply put more gas in it.
It's not like the Nissan Leaf, which is battery only.

It's still fairly useless to me. I'd be running off the gas
engine more than the electric motor.
I'll stick with the dinky gas or diesel cars..

[Michelle Steiner]

In article

Post by n***@wt.net
It's still fairly useless to me. I'd be running off the gas
engine more than the electric motor.

No, you'll be running off the electric motor all the time. The only thing
the gas engine does in the Volt is charge the batteries for the electric
motor.

Post by n***@wt.net
I'll stick with the dinky gas or diesel cars..

Whatever.

[Peter Granzeau]

Post by n***@wt.net

Post by Michelle Steiner
In article

I wouldn't buy one at half price.. The 40 mile wonder..  :/
Doesn't go far enough to do me any good..

That's 40 miles on just the initial battery charge; after that, the
gasoline motor kicks in to recharge the battery, and you'll keep going for
so long as there is gas in the tank.  And when the tank runs low, you
simply put more gas in it.
It's not like the Nissan Leaf, which is battery only.

It's still fairly useless to me. I'd be running off the gas
engine more than the electric motor.
I'll stick with the dinky gas or diesel cars..

Let's assume the Volt gets about 40 mpg when the engine is running. If
you drive 400 miles a day, you get 10% better gas mileage, or 44 mpg.
And if you drive 100 miles a day, you get 40% better gas mileage, or 56
mpg.

I agree, $41,000 is too much for me, but I've always driven inexpensive
cars (the current Prius is the most expensive car I ever bought, and the
only one for which I ever paid more than $20,000. In fact I only paid
more than $10,000 for two other cars, one of which I still have).

GM needs to amortize the cost of developing the car, in the first place.
They are using technology that American automakers have never used
before. No part of the electric drivetrain has been made in the USA
previously, nor have batteries of the type the Volt will use, either.
While components of the Volt may never be reduced in cost to the level
that we will be buying $18,000 Volts, surely the cost of production will
fall as time goes on.

When I still owned a home, I might have had the infrastructure to own a
Volt--a 110V outlet and a power cord. I now live in an apartment, so
owning an electric car I would not be able to charge is, unfortunately,
not something that makes sense, and I'll just have to keep on driving
the Prius.

[Bob Cooper]

Post by Peter Granzeau
Let's assume the Volt gets about 40 mpg when the engine is running. If
you drive 400 miles a day, you get 10% better gas mileage, or 44 mpg.
And if you drive 100 miles a day, you get 40% better gas mileage, or 56
mpg.

Although much about the Volt isn't known, one thing that seems pretty
clear is it is targeted at consumers who drive about 40 miles a day, but
don't want to worry about being stranded with a dead battery, want the
ability to take occasional longer trips, and have a place to plug in.
That's a pretty big market.
Since it's motivated purely "electrically" it may not be suitable for
continual long distance driving with basically an ICE generator powering
electric motors to propel it.
The Prius is "mostly" driven forward by mechanical torque from its ICE.
From what little I've read the Prius has no issue with cross-country.
Don't know if that will be true with the Volt.
I might be wrong, but that's how I understand it now.

Post by Peter Granzeau
I agree, $41,000 is too much for me, but I've always driven inexpensive
cars (the current Prius is the most expensive car I ever bought, and the
only one for which I ever paid more than $20,000. In fact I only paid
more than $10,000 for two other cars, one of which I still have).
GM needs to amortize the cost of developing the car, in the first place.
They are using technology that American automakers have never used
before. No part of the electric drivetrain has been made in the USA
previously, nor have batteries of the type the Volt will use, either.
While components of the Volt may never be reduced in cost to the level
that we will be buying $18,000 Volts, surely the cost of production will
fall as time goes on.
When I still owned a home, I might have had the infrastructure to own a
Volt--a 110V outlet and a power cord. I now live in an apartment, so
owning an electric car I would not be able to charge is, unfortunately,
not something that makes sense, and I'll just have to keep on driving
the Prius.

All good points. The big questions are how the car will perform, and
how soon the price will come down.
It strikes me as a real good idea for a commuter/grocery car within its
battery charge range.
Just doesn't seem right for long range, but I could be wrong.
Offhand, the 10 or so commuters in my family travel 12-60 miles a day
but 3 live in apartments without a place to plug-in.
Don't think any of them would want the Volt at the suggested price
though.
Right now it's just promises.
Has to prove itself in the marketplace, and I won't bet either way.
This car could make or break GM.
Very interesting.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Bob Cooper
From what little I've read the Prius has no issue with cross-country.

I've driven a Prius from the Phoenix area to San Francisco and back,
stopping only for fuel and food. It's about an 800 mile drive from my
house.

[Agnasty Shagnasty]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Bob Cooper
From what little I've read the Prius has no issue with cross-country.

I've driven a Prius from the Phoenix area to San Francisco and back,
stopping only for fuel and food. It's about an 800 mile drive from my
house.

You mean you can drive a Prius from Phoenix to San Francisco and back?
Amazing. It's a wonder what they can do with modern vehicles today.

On two occasions, I drove a vehicle from Tucson Arizona to Seattle
Washington! Would you believe that the vehicle was in good shape once I got
there?

I wonder if anyone has tried to drive from Los Angeles to New York?

[Peter Granzeau]

Post by Bob Cooper
Although much about the Volt isn't known, one thing that seems pretty
clear is it is targeted at consumers who drive about 40 miles a day, but
don't want to worry about being stranded with a dead battery, want the
ability to take occasional longer trips, and have a place to plug in.
That's a pretty big market.
Since it's motivated purely "electrically" it may not be suitable for
continual long distance driving with basically an ICE generator powering
electric motors to propel it.
The Prius is "mostly" driven forward by mechanical torque from its ICE.
From what little I've read the Prius has no issue with cross-country.
Don't know if that will be true with the Volt.
I might be wrong, but that's how I understand it now.

Although I didn't drive an expensive car, I probably never drove my car
more than 40 miles a day while working. My commute to work was 6 miles,
and otherwise driving around town might or might not be 28 miles or
more. That use, the Volt might make without ever using the engine.

[ben91932]

Let's assume the Volt gets about 40 mpg when the engine is running.  If
you drive 400 miles a day, you get 10% better gas mileage, or 44 mpg.
And if you drive 100 miles a day, you get 40% better gas mileage, or 56
mpg.

Lets go a step farther and look at a 40 mile daily commute.
You charge up each night for about $1.80,(cheaper if your utility
company offers off-peak discounts.) The engine may start briefly
towards the end of the return trip, so you'll need a few dollars worth
of gas a month.
Your effective mileage is *way* north of 100.
There is always a hesitancy to accept new technology, but I think that
once the Volt forums start singing their praises (like the the Tesla
forums do now)
They will really start to sell.
GM can still screw this up, but I am hugely optimistic that the volt
will sell millions.
This kind of efficiency leap is really gonna help GM when the CAFE
jumps to 60mpg in 2025!
Ben

[Jane Galt]

Post by ben91932
GM can still screw this up, but I am hugely optimistic that the volt
will sell millions.

How could a government owned and supported auto company POSSIBLY screw
anything up? <snicker>

Post by ben91932
This kind of efficiency leap is really gonna help GM when the CAFE
jumps to 60mpg in 2025!

I should live so long.
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[ben91932]

I wouldn't buy one at half price.. The 40 mile wonder..  :/
Doesn't go far enough to do me any good..

It's a hybrid. When the batteries run down the engine starts up and
recharges the batteries as you drive.
If what GM is claiming is true, you are only limited by the amount of
gas in the tank.

And you gotta plug them doggies in

somewhere.

Only if you want to. Although it is *way* cheaper to commute if you
plug in over night.
HTH
Ben

[hls]

I wouldn't buy one at half price.. The 40 mile wonder.. :/
Doesn't go far enough to do me any good..

It's a hybrid. When the batteries run down the engine starts up and
recharges the batteries as you drive.

********
That is not my understanding of this POS. It is not a hybrid, as such.
When your battery gives out, the engine starts and you run on generated
electricity. Your batteries do not charge until you get home (if you get
home) and plug her in..

Anybody who would buy one of these is seriously impaired. I suspect
that the socialist Obama government may buy a lot of these for
transcontinental transport of postage stamps. The new KY should
make it a more pleasant trip.

[Wayne]

Post by ben91932

I wouldn't buy one at half price.. The 40 mile wonder.. :/
Doesn't go far enough to do me any good..

It's a hybrid. When the batteries run down the engine starts up and
recharges the batteries as you drive.
********
That is not my understanding of this POS. It is not a hybrid, as such.
When your battery gives out, the engine starts and you run on generated
electricity. Your batteries do not charge until you get home (if you get
home) and plug her in..
Anybody who would buy one of these is seriously impaired. I suspect
that the socialist Obama government may buy a lot of these for
transcontinental transport of postage stamps. The new KY should
make it a more pleasant trip.

The price of this pipe dream is a nightmare. $20,000 over an equivalent
gasoline car? Are you kidding.....do you know how much gas you can buy for
$20,000? Just buy the lower priced piece of crap and if it breaks....throw
the sucker away and buy a new one.
Or buy a Toyota to begin with....

[Peter Granzeau]

"If they want GM to give the car away, they should stop complaining about government ownership."

One might hazard a wager that not a single person who complains of
government owneership also wants GM to give the Volt away.

[homey]

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.

VW did that with the new BUG and Toyota would too if they made anything
worth buying. Doesn't last long for any of them.

[hls]

Post by homey
VW did that with the new BUG and Toyota would too if they made anything
worth buying. Doesn't last long for any of them.

VW did that in Houston around the time of the oil embargo, I guess around
the early 70's.

People were already in a heap of trouble, and then for them to increase the
cost of a VW was not appreciated at all. I dont know how many people
alive today remember this, but certainly havent forgotten their behavior.

[SMS]

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."
Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/Dealers-extra-charge-for-Volt-is-simply-supply-and-demand#ixzz0w4xWT0ce

The Volt would be fairly priced at around $25K. I would not be surprised
to see electric cars with their own ICE powered charger available for
around that price within five years. There's nothing difficult about it.

For under $5000 you can convert a Prius to a plug-in hybrid with about a
30 mile range (but only at lower speeds). It's a rather clever approach,
simply using the additional batteries to charge the factory traction
battery. For $13,000 you can get 40 miles of range up to 52 mph (it
requires a suspension upgrade, included in the price).

Long term, it'd be good to see a modular system where you can choose to
have the trunk full of batteries for sufficent commute range and higher
speed for commuting, while removing the battery packs for more cargo
space for longer trips. The problem with the hybrid Camry is that the
Camry's otherwise cavernous trunk is tiny because of the battery packs.

[Tom]

Post by SMS

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."
Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/Dealers-extra-charge-for-Volt-is-simply-supply-and-demand#ixzz0w4xWT0ce

The Volt would be fairly priced at around $25K. I would not be surprised
to see electric cars with their own ICE powered charger available for
around that price within five years. There's nothing difficult about it.
For under $5000 you can convert a Prius to a plug-in hybrid with about a
30 mile range (but only at lower speeds). It's a rather clever approach,
simply using the additional batteries to charge the factory traction
battery. For $13,000 you can get 40 miles of range up to 52 mph (it
requires a suspension upgrade, included in the price).
Long term, it'd be good to see a modular system where you can choose to
have the trunk full of batteries for sufficent commute range and higher
speed for commuting, while removing the battery packs for more cargo space
for longer trips. The problem with the hybrid Camry is that the Camry's
otherwise cavernous trunk is tiny because of the battery packs.

another would be car designer without a clue

[Agnasty Shagnasty]

Post by SMS

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."
Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/Dealers-extra-charge-for-Volt-is-simply-supply-and-demand#ixzz0w4xWT0ce

The Volt would be fairly priced at around $25K. I would not be surprised
to see electric cars with their own ICE powered charger available for
around that price within five years. There's nothing difficult about it.
For under $5000 you can convert a Prius to a plug-in hybrid with about a
30 mile range (but only at lower speeds). It's a rather clever approach,
simply using the additional batteries to charge the factory traction
battery. For $13,000 you can get 40 miles of range up to 52 mph (it
requires a suspension upgrade, included in the price).

For $13,000 you can purchase an extra 4,700+ gallons of gas! The difference
between the extra range would take you 75 years plus to break even. Forget
it.

[SMS]

For $13,000 you can purchase an extra 4,700+ gallons of gas! The
difference between the extra range would take you 75 years plus to break
even. Forget it.

Those purchasing electric cars and hybrids are not doing so based on
economics. Plus you forgot to include the cost of electricity to charge
the batteries.

If Toyota would do a plug-in hybrid version of the Prius with a battery
range of even 20 miles (enough for most around town driving) without
increasing the price of the vehicle, and gasoline went way up in price,
then you might see some economic benefit. The bigger benefit would be a
societal benefit of importing less oil, though not if the electricity
was generated with oil. A nation of plug-in hybrids that are charged by
nuclear and hydro-electric power is what's needed.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by SMS

For $13,000 you can purchase an extra 4,700+ gallons of gas! The
difference between the extra range would take you 75 years plus to break
even. Forget it.

Those purchasing electric cars and hybrids are not doing so based on
economics.

Bull. They're going to have to pay for an amount of gas anyway.

They're purchasing them because they're either Bleeding Edgers, and/or
they think they're actually saving the planet. How much coal does it take
to charge the car?


Now, if there were more Nuke plants, windfarms and solar, it could be
argued these cars are actually having an environmental impact. But the
same people who buy these cars are (in my area, at least) also opposed to
nukes and wind power (kills birds, ya know!) and sloar is just too damn
expensive. So they are offsetting their 'carbon footprint' to the evil
electric company.

[Roger Blake]

Post by SMS
Those purchasing electric cars and hybrids are not doing so based on
economics.

True. Most are libtards purchasing them based on sheer idiocy.

[Sharx35]

Post by Roger Blake

Post by SMS
Those purchasing electric cars and hybrids are not doing so based on
economics.

True. Most are libtards purchasing them based on sheer idiocy.
--
Roger Blake
(Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled due to spam.)
"0bama snoozed while oil oozed."

Precisely. Finally, someone has clearly stated the obvious.

[ben91932]

Post by Roger Blake
True. Most are libtards purchasing them based on sheer idiocy.

I plan on buying one as soon as the price comes down to sticker.
With my 26 mile a day commute, 3 1/2 cent off peak charging at home
and free charging at work, I should get the equivelant of 150 mpg.
Being a cheap ass doesnt make me a liberal, does it?

[Jane Galt]

Post by ben91932

Post by Roger Blake
True. Most are libtards purchasing them based on sheer idiocy.

I plan on buying one as soon as the price comes down to sticker.
With my 26 mile a day commute, 3 1/2 cent off peak charging at home
and free charging at work, I should get the equivelant of 150 mpg.
Being a cheap ass doesnt make me a liberal, does it?

I dont think the MPG analogy is accurate when you're using electricity from
the house.

How about "fuel cost cents per mile"?
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Steve Austin]

Post by Jane Galt

Post by ben91932

Post by Roger Blake
True. Most are libtards purchasing them based on sheer idiocy.

I plan on buying one as soon as the price comes down to sticker.
With my 26 mile a day commute, 3 1/2 cent off peak charging at home
and free charging at work, I should get the equivelant of 150 mpg.
Being a cheap ass doesnt make me a liberal, does it?

I dont think the MPG analogy is accurate when you're using electricity from
the house.
How about "fuel cost cents per mile"?

Sooner or later the powers that be are going to want road tax on that
electricity.

[C. E. White]

Post by Steve Austin
Sooner or later the powers that be are going to want road tax on that
electricity.

They already do. Several states are investigating ways of charging per mile
based on the use of GPS devices or other means.

Ed

[Neo]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Steve Austin
Sooner or later the powers that be are going to want road tax on that
electricity.

They already do. Several states are investigating ways of charging per mile
based on the use of GPS devices or other means.

The low tech and cheapest way to tax per mile is via toll roads.

However, the infrastructure to tax electricity, natural gas, and the
gasoline pump is already here
so naturally for a quick revenue fix - it is more likely than not to
happen first.

I have my doubts about the political process
call me jaded but I don't think politics is the answer.

Instead,
I bought a Prius and I am trying to learn how to make it do MORE with
less.

\It's a rough patch to hoe but I'm making progress at with an overall
65 mpg
for the last 200+ miles. I was getting 69 mpg until several powerful
storms
messed up our traffic lights system and the Prius FE drop down to 59
mpg in three
days of crappy driving... .ugh... sooo close but so far away...

[Jane Galt]

Post by Neo

Post by C. E. White

Post by Steve Austin
Sooner or later the powers that be are going to want road tax on that
electricity.

They already do. Several states are investigating ways of charging per

mi

Post by Neo
le

Post by C. E. White
based on the use of GPS devices or other means.

The low tech and cheapest way to tax per mile is via toll roads.
However, the infrastructure to tax electricity, natural gas, and the
gasoline pump is already here
so naturally for a quick revenue fix - it is more likely than not to
happen first.
I have my doubts about the political process
call me jaded but I don't think politics is the answer.

“Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would
necessarily skyrocket.” – Barack Obama

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the
national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian
national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as
well-funded." -- Barack Obama

“You know, if you look at the victories and failures of the civil-rights
movement, and its litigation strategy in the court, I think where it
succeeded was to vest formal rights in previously dispossessed peoples. So
that I would now have the right to vote, I would now be able to sit at a
lunch counter and order and as long as I could pay for it, I’d be okay, but
the Supreme Court never entered into the issues of redistribution of
wealth, and sort of more basic issues of political and economic justice in
this society.
And uh, to that extent, as radical as I think people tried to characterize
the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the
essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the
Constitution — at least as it’s been interpreted, and Warren Court
interpreted it in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a
charter of negative liberties: [It] says what the states can’t do to you,
says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what
the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf.
And that hasn’t shifted, and one of the, I think, the tragedies of the
civil-rights movement was because the civil-rights movement became so
court-focused, uh, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the
political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are
able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring
about redistributive change. And in some ways we still suffer from that.” -
Barack Obama, 2001

"The third lesson and tip actually comes from two of my favorite political
philosophers: Mao Tse-tung and Mother Theresa -- not often coupled with
each other, but the two people I turn to most to basically deliver a simple
point which is 'you're going to make choices; you're going to challenge;
you're going to say why not; you're going to figure out how to do things
that have never been done before." - Anita Dunn, Obama White House
communications director.

"Any serious effort to reform the media system would have to be necessarily
part of a revolutionary program to overthrow the capitalist system itself.
Also, there is no real answer, but to remove, brick by brick, the
capitalist system itself, rebuilding the entire society on socialist
principles." - Robert McChesney, Obama FCC diversity czar.

" A legislative effort to regulate broadcasting in the interest of
democratic principles should not be seen as an abridgment of the free
speech guarantee." - Obama Regulatory Czar Cass Sunstein
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Jane Galt]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Steve Austin
Sooner or later the powers that be are going to want road tax on that
electricity.

They already do. Several states are investigating ways of charging per
mile based on the use of GPS devices or other means.
Ed

Wait until they want you to wear a GPS collar to track you like their cow.
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Jane Galt]

Post by Steve Austin

Post by Jane Galt

Post by ben91932

Post by Roger Blake
True. Most are libtards purchasing them based on sheer idiocy.

I plan on buying one as soon as the price comes down to sticker.
With my 26 mile a day commute, 3 1/2 cent off peak charging at home
and free charging at work, I should get the equivelant of 150 mpg.
Being a cheap ass doesnt make me a liberal, does it?

I dont think the MPG analogy is accurate when you're using electricity
from the house.
How about "fuel cost cents per mile"?

Sooner or later the powers that be are going to want road tax on that
electricity.

The power to tax is the power to own your life. There's only one way to
limit government.

Voluntary government: Only the amount of government that the people would
willingly support, and that wasn't allowed to initiate force. Before you
scoff at the idea and start saying that no one would support it, think
about it some. Everything the government currently does, which people
wouldn't support it doing, all the waste and pork would be gone, leaving
maybe 5% of the budget the government has now, which would only be used for
the essentials that people would willingly support. Therefore they'd likely
have more funding for the things the people really wanted, without all the
waste and oppression of human rights that the government does now.

How would it be done? The collectivists think Uncle Sam would have to stand
on a corner holding a hat out for donations, but that's absurd hyperbole.

It could be done similarly to how government is supported now, only
voluntarily. People could make a flat suggested donation for their income
level at work, through payroll deductions, or they could make a suggested
donation at the store when they buy things. OR they might even go on their
computers and itemize certain percentages of their payroll donations for
certain things, like defense, police, fire or roads.

They would be free, instead of being enslaved to support every frivolous
whim that some scumbag politician might dream up, like everyone is now.

And the marxist motto "From each according to his abilities, to each
according to his needs." would be eliminated, as they would no longer be
forced into slavery to pay for every imagined "need" that anyone else could
dream up.

The voluntary government plan above would be perfect because people would
only get the amount of government they'd voluntarily support, thereby
eliminating all pork and whims. Any amount of government that people won't
willingly support, doesn't deserve to exist.
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Sharx35]

Post by ben91932

Post by Roger Blake
True. Most are libtards purchasing them based on sheer idiocy.

I plan on buying one as soon as the price comes down to sticker.
With my 26 mile a day commute, 3 1/2 cent off peak charging at home
and free charging at work, I should get the equivelant of 150 mpg.
Being a cheap ass doesnt make me a liberal, does it?

PRoves there's a sucker born every minute!

[ben91932]

.

Post by Sharx35

Post by ben91932
Being a cheap ass doesnt make me a liberal, does it?

PRoves there's a sucker born every minute!

Please explain

Ben

[Jane Galt]

Post by ben91932
I plan on buying one as soon as the price comes down to sticker.
With my 26 mile a day commute, 3 1/2 cent off peak charging at home
and free charging at work, I should get the equivelant of 150 mpg.
Being a cheap ass doesnt make me a liberal, does it?

No, just silly. :)
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Neo]

Post by ben91932

Post by Roger Blake
True. Most are libtards purchasing them based on sheer idiocy.

I plan on buying one as soon as the price comes down to sticker.
With my 26 mile a day commute, 3 1/2 cent off peak charging at home
and free charging at work, I should get the equivelant of 150 mpg.
Being a cheap ass doesnt make me a liberal, does it?

A REAL *cheap ass* only cares about the $_$
everything else (including politics) is worthless.

Ideology is for mental zombies, Cash is King.

[Neo]

Post by SMS

For $13,000 you can purchase an extra 4,700+ gallons of gas! The
difference between the extra range would take you 75 years plus to break
even. Forget it.

Those purchasing electric cars and hybrids are not doing so based on
economics.

This is true of "hollow" hybrids but not necessarily true for all
hybrids.

An inexpensive hybrid which gets over 40mpg (e.g.
2010 Honda Insight, 2010 Toyota Prius) can makes
economic sense if ownership is over 15 years,
if gasoline prices double or triple over the
life of the vehicle, and if the annual average mileage is
significantly high enough.

Also using hypermiling techniques, it is much
more easier to raise the fuel efficiency of a hybrid
than that of a conventional gasoline/diesel vehicle
using a regular instrument panel. A hybrid is
often the car of choice for a hypermiler.
Using hypermiling techniques a 2010 Toyota
Prius and a 2010 Honda Insight can easily increase
their overall mileage by 20% if not more without
any special equipment, e.g. Scangauge II.

Post by SMS
Plus you forgot to include the cost of electricity to charge
the batteries.

Initial reports suggest that BEV (e.g. Nissan Leaf) and PHEV
(e.g. Chevy volt) are getting about 100 miles per 23 kwh.
Via deregulation, the cost of electricity is trending upward
to pay for upgrading the electric utility infrastructures
and because local governments are taxing electricity
to gain revenue. In MD the cost of electricity has
risen from about 12 cents per kwh to about 18 cents
per kwh within the last year. If the price of
electricity increases faster than the average
price of gasoline - the energy cost advantage of
a BEV will start evaporating unless one can
independently generate electricity

Post by SMS
If Toyota would do a plug-in hybrid version of the Prius with a battery
range of even 20 miles (enough for most around town driving) without
increasing the price of the vehicle, and gasoline went way up in price,
then you might see some economic benefit. The bigger benefit would be a
societal benefit of importing less oil, though not if the electricity
was generated with oil. A nation of plug-in hybrids that are charged by
nuclear and hydro-electric power is what's needed.

Toyota started making a limited number of 2010 Plug-in Prius
but sold only bulk for fleet sales. The car has a fast charge
5 prong plug and a Li Ion Battery Pack ( twice the size of the
current NiMh battery pack) . Initial reports of the PHEV Prius
suggest a range of 10 to 15 miles with Toyota's current
battery management system (which is used to extend the
life of the battery pack over 8 years).

The efficiency of the regenerative braking system
and the ability of the batteries to provide a high burst of
electric power on today's BEV/PHEV/HEV could be
improved further. Both the Volt and the Leaf increase
their abilty to handle high burst of electric power
by using a Li-ion battery pack which has a much
larger power capacity than a Prius. However, another
way would be to use ultracapacitors as a temporary
power caching system as posed by AFS Trinity's system.

[Jane Galt]

Post by Neo

Post by SMS
Those purchasing electric cars and hybrids are not doing so based on
economics.

This is true of "hollow" hybrids but not necessarily true for all
hybrids.

?

Post by Neo
An inexpensive hybrid which gets over 40mpg (e.g.
2010 Honda Insight, 2010 Toyota Prius) can makes
economic sense if ownership is over 15 years,
if gasoline prices double or triple over the
life of the vehicle, and if the annual average mileage is
significantly high enough.

What if gas prices dont move much? It seems like the more oil we look for,
the more we find.

Post by Neo
Also using hypermiling techniques, it is much
more easier to raise the fuel efficiency of a hybrid
than that of a conventional gasoline/diesel vehicle
using a regular instrument panel.

?

Post by Neo
A hybrid is
often the car of choice for a hypermiler.
Using hypermiling techniques a 2010 Toyota
Prius and a 2010 Honda Insight can easily increase
their overall mileage by 20% if not more without
any special equipment, e.g. Scangauge II.

?

Post by Neo

Post by SMS
Plus you forgot to include the cost of electricity to charge
the batteries.

Initial reports suggest that BEV (e.g. Nissan Leaf) and PHEV
(e.g. Chevy volt) are getting about 100 miles per 23 kwh.
Via deregulation, the cost of electricity is trending upward
to pay for upgrading the electric utility infrastructures
and because local governments are taxing electricity
to gain revenue. In MD the cost of electricity has
risen from about 12 cents per kwh to about 18 cents
per kwh within the last year. If the price of
electricity increases faster than the average
price of gasoline - the energy cost advantage of
a BEV will start evaporating unless one can
independently generate electricity

Or get the government off our backs and tell them to stop the taxation.

Post by Neo
Toyota started making a limited number of 2010 Plug-in Prius
but sold only bulk for fleet sales. The car has a fast charge
5 prong plug and a Li Ion Battery Pack ( twice the size of the
current NiMh battery pack) . Initial reports of the PHEV Prius
suggest a range of 10 to 15 miles with Toyota's current
battery management system (which is used to extend the
life of the battery pack over 8 years).

Whoo hoo! 10-15 miles! I'm speechless! LOL

[Chas Gill]

<snipped>

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
Toyota started making a limited number of 2010 Plug-in Prius
but sold only bulk for fleet sales. The car has a fast charge
5 prong plug and a Li Ion Battery Pack ( twice the size of the
current NiMh battery pack) . Initial reports of the PHEV Prius
suggest a range of 10 to 15 miles with Toyota's current
battery management system (which is used to extend the
life of the battery pack over 8 years).

Whoo hoo! 10-15 miles! I'm speechless! LOL
--
- Jane Galt

This, I believe, is based upon the fact that something like 90 percent of
all car journeys (and I fall into this category) are less than 5 miles and
will therefore be completed without the need for the ICE to fire up. Seems
like a very good compromise to me. I'd be happier with, say, 40 miles
range, to cover the next 5 per cent but not at the expense of losing even
more trunk space and gaining even more weight. Toyota's approach seems to
be softly softly on this and it might prove to be the right approach in the
long run. Time will tell.

Chas

[Neo]

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo

Post by SMS
Those purchasing electric cars and hybrids are not doing so based on
economics.

This is true of "hollow" hybrids but not necessarily true for all
hybrids.

?

Post by Neo
An inexpensive hybrid which gets over 40mpg (e.g.
2010 Honda Insight, 2010 Toyota Prius) can makes
economic sense if ownership is over 15 years,
if gasoline prices double or triple  over the
life of the vehicle, and if the annual average mileage is
significantly high enough.

What if gas prices dont move much? It seems like the more oil we look for,
the more we find.

Post by Neo
Also using hypermiling  techniques, it is much
more easier to raise the fuel efficiency  of a hybrid
than that of a conventional gasoline/diesel  vehicle
using a regular instrument panel.
 A hybrid is
often the car of choice for a hypermiler.
Using  hypermiling techniques a 2010 Toyota
Prius and a 2010 Honda Insight can easily increase
their overall mileage by 20% if not more without
any special equipment, e.g. Scangauge II.

?

Using hypermiling techniques, for a stock 2010 Toyota
Prius with an EPA overall rating of 50 mpg can see
an improvement of up to 70 mpg. In past hypermiler
competitions, the first genation of a stock Honda
Insight hybrid (which have bee rated by the EPA at
about 55 mpg) can achieved over 90 mpg.

Hypermiling techniques can be used to increase
the fuel efficiency of any car, but hybrids
like the Toyota Prius and the Honda Insight are
easier to use because they automate certain
Hypermiling techniques for the driver.
For example, A hybrid will automatically shutdown
the gas engine when the vehicle is stopping at a traffic
light to save gas. In a conventional car, a
hypermiling driver would have to manually
turn off the engine at the red traffic light
and then manually restart the engine when
the traffic light turned green. Hybrids also
are guaranteed to have Instanteous Fuel
Efficiency (MPG) gauges which help a driver
dynamically monitor the vehicles's fuel efficiency.
When Hypermilers drive a conventional gas
car, they often use an after market device
called a Scan Gauge II to help them dynamically
monitor a vehicle's fuel efficiency. Every ICE
vehicle has a "sweet spot" where it runs most
efficiently (as expressed in RPMs) wrt to MPG..

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo

Post by SMS
Plus you forgot to include the cost of electricity to charge
the batteries.

Initial reports suggest that BEV (e.g. Nissan Leaf)  and PHEV
(e.g. Chevy volt) are getting about 100 miles per 23 kwh.
Via deregulation, the cost of electricity is trending upward
to pay for upgrading the electric utility infrastructures
and because local governments are taxing electricity
to gain revenue.  In MD the cost of electricity has
risen from about 12 cents per kwh to about 18 cents
per kwh  within the last year.  If the price of
electricity increases faster than the average
price of gasoline - the energy cost advantage of
a BEV will start  evaporating  unless one can
independently generate electricity

Or get the government off our backs and tell them to stop the taxation.

US government regulation of electricity kept the prices down.
US government deregulation of electricity has lead to dramatic price
increases
as well as market manipulation and speculation (e.g. Enron Scandal).
US government deregulation of Wall Street lead to the Global Economic
Financial Meltdown and our current recession which in turn has
forced
state governments to look for new ways to raise revenue and
taxes

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
Toyota started making a limited number of 2010 Plug-in Prius
but sold only bulk for fleet sales.  The car has a fast charge
5 prong plug and a Li Ion Battery Pack ( twice the size of the
current NiMh battery pack) .  Initial reports of the PHEV Prius
suggest a range of 10 to 15 miles with Toyota's current
battery management system (which is used to extend the
life of the battery pack over 8 years).

Whoo hoo! 10-15 miles! I'm speechless! LOL

The all electric range is the sexier performance spec but
is curiously the least important cost factor.

When purchasing a PHEV or BEV the more important
practical and cost factor will be the lifespan of a Traction Battery.
Tesla's BEV Roadster 990 pound Li-Ion battery is warranted for
7 years and cost about $36,000 dollars to replace.
Tesla says that after their Li-ion battery pack should be
able to still hold 70% of its original charge after five years/50,000
miles.

The cost to replace a 2000 Toyota Prius (1st Generation Prius,
NHW10 and NHW11) 100 pound NiMh battery pack ( which had an 8 year
warranty, 10 years in CA) cost about $3000 dollars. The actually
average
lifespace of a 1st generation Prius is looking to be about 10 to 14
years. Toyota engineers believe that the 2nd and 3rd generation
Prius battery packs will last even longer than the 1st generation..

The estimated cost to replace the Chevy Volt 400 pound Li-ion
battery pack has been quotes to be around $15,000 dollars.
The cost to replace the 2010 Nissan Leaf 660 pound Li-Ion battery
pack is likely to be about $12,000 dollars. The cost of the
2012 PHEV Toyota Prius 330 pound Li-Ion battery is likely
hover around $6000 dollars. The Chevy Volt Warranty for the
Li-ion pack is 8 years ( CA will require it to be 10 yrs).


BTW
A Tesla Roadster is rated at about 100 miles/ 25khw (input charging
power) and 100 miles/22khw (stored battery power).
Early reports suggest that the 2012 PHEV Toyota Prius will
to get about an overall EPA rating of 75 mpg.
.

[Jane Galt]

Post by Neo
US government regulation of electricity kept the prices down.
US government deregulation of electricity has lead to dramatic price
increases
as well as market manipulation and speculation (e.g. Enron Scandal).
US government deregulation of Wall Street lead to the Global Economic
Financial Meltdown and our current recession which in turn has
forced
state governments to look for new ways to raise revenue and
taxes

That's just crazy. Government reg has never done anything good for us.
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Jane Galt
That's just crazy. Government reg has never done anything good for us.

Someone with your handle would say that. ;)

[Jane Galt]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jane Galt
That's just crazy. Government reg has never done anything good for us.

Someone with your handle would say that. ;)

:)

And my sig, dont forget my sig...
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Neo]

Post by Jane Galt

US government regulation of electricity kept the  prices down.
US government deregulation of electricity has lead to dramatic price
increases
  as well as market manipulation and speculation (e.g. Enron Scandal).
US government deregulation of Wall Street lead to the Global Economic
    Financial Meltdown and our current recession which in turn has
forced
      state governments to look for new ways to raise revenue and
taxes

That's just crazy.
Government reg has never done anything good for us.

No not crazy just the facts.
However, the facts can be bad or good depending on your point of view.

Government regulations kept electricity down by limiting profits/
earnings
from the generation of electricity and in turn allowed for a
controlled
marketplace (often a single source monopoly on the source of
electricity).
Deregulation of electricity allows an *open* market which allow
multiple
electricity providers via one distribution channel but also allows a
profit
on the generation of electricity. However, the expansion of
electrical
providers never really materialize because of the large capital cost -
so
hence there are only a few electrical providers. Thus advantages of
competition in an *open market* for deregulation of electric utilities
never materialized. Instead the electric utility market changed
from
a monopoly to an oligiopoly. Deregulation also allowed for
the consolidation of the power grid infrastruction which lead
to large corporate power companies like Enron. The lack of
oversight and price controls for the purchasing and distribution
of electric power lead to price manipulation in California recently
by Enron. This lead to higher prices for electricity in California,
record profits for Enron, a Congressional Hearing, and
finally the Enron Scandal. For the traders who made
alot of cash from manipulating the price of electricity in
California deregulation was manna from heaven. For
the people stuck with the high electric bills - it was
hell on earth. However, wasn't it President Lincoln
who said - you are about as happy as you make up
your mind you that want to be?

[Jane Galt]

Post by Neo

Post by Jane Galt

US government regulation of electricity kept the  prices down.
US government deregulation of electricity has lead to dramatic price
increases
  as well as market manipulation and speculation (e.g. Enron Scandal)

.

Post by Jane Galt

US government deregulation of Wall Street lead to the Global Economic
    Financial Meltdown and our current recession which in turn has
forced
      state governments to look for new ways to raise revenue and
taxes

That's just crazy.
Government reg has never done anything good for us.

No not crazy just the facts.
However, the facts can be bad or good depending on your point of view.

Relativism.

Post by Neo
Government regulations kept electricity down by limiting profits/
earnings
from the generation of electricity and in turn allowed for a
controlled
marketplace (often a single source monopoly on the source of
electricity).

Ah, an anti-capitalist.

But if the free market was allowed to work, without monopolies ( franchises
) people would be able to compete to sell us electricity.

Post by Neo
Deregulation of electricity allows an *open* market which allow
multiple
electricity providers via one distribution channel but also allows a
profit
on the generation of electricity.

Oh, how horrible! Allowing profit! We'll all be doomed at the hands of the
greedy capitalist running dog pigs!

Are you peeing yourself at the thought of PROFIT?!

Post by Neo
However, the expansion of
electrical
providers never really materialize because of the large capital cost -
so
hence there are only a few electrical providers.

Yeah, government monopolies do that, and raise costs in the process.

Post by Neo
Thus advantages of
competition in an *open market* for deregulation of electric utilities
never materialized.

How could they, with government sanctioned monopolies?

Post by Neo
Instead the electric utility market changed
from
a monopoly to an oligiopoly.

Quelle surprise.

Post by Neo
Deregulation also allowed for
the consolidation of the power grid infrastruction which lead
to large corporate power companies like Enron. The lack of
oversight and price controls for the purchasing and distribution
of electric power lead to price manipulation in California recently
by Enron. This lead to higher prices for electricity in California,
record profits for Enron, a Congressional Hearing, and
finally the Enron Scandal. For the traders who made
alot of cash from manipulating the price of electricity in
California deregulation was manna from heaven. For
the people stuck with the high electric bills - it was
hell on earth. However, wasn't it President Lincoln
who said - you are about as happy as you make up
your mind you that want to be?

Lincoln was a tyrant IMO. Not because I'm fond of slavery, I never have
been, but because he rendered the union like the mafia or the Hotel
California - "you can check out any time you like, but you can never
leave".

By the way, where in the Constitution does it say that states may vote to
join the union but may NOT vote to leave it?
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Jane Galt
But if the free market was allowed to work, without monopolies (
franchises ) people would be able to compete to sell us electricity.

The free market often winds up with de facto monopolies.

[Jane Galt]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jane Galt
But if the free market was allowed to work, without monopolies (
franchises ) people would be able to compete to sell us electricity.

The free market often winds up with de facto monopolies.

When have we had a free market?

In a truly free market, people can compete with whoever makes something.

Check out the free video series "Free To Choose" by Milton Friedman. The man
was absolutely brilliant. http://miltonfriedman.blogspot.com/
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jane Galt
But if the free market was allowed to work, without monopolies (
franchises ) people would be able to compete to sell us electricity.

The free market often winds up with de facto monopolies.

When have we had a free market?

Irrelevant.

Post by Jane Galt
In a truly free market, people can compete with whoever makes something.

If you have the financial and technical resources.

[Jane Galt]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jane Galt
But if the free market was allowed to work, without monopolies (
franchises ) people would be able to compete to sell us electricity.

The free market often winds up with de facto monopolies.

When have we had a free market?

Irrelevant.

Absolutely relevant. Marxists set up the conditions and regulations for
capitalism to go under, then blame capitalism for it!

Progressives are a disease, pretending to be its own cure.

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jane Galt
In a truly free market, people can compete with whoever makes something.

If you have the financial and technical resources.

Boo hoo. The alternative is:

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

This is causing our country to go down the tubes now!
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Neo]

Post by Jane Galt
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

Our destiny to be a force for good or evil is based on the choices we
make, not on our abilities.

[Neo]

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jane Galt
But if the free market was allowed to work, without monopolies (
franchises ) people would be able to compete to sell us electricity.

The free market often winds up with de facto monopolies.

When have we had a free market?

It's been outsourced to China.

Post by Jane Galt
In a truly free market, people can compete with whoever makes something.
Check out the free video series "Free To Choose" by Milton Friedman. The man
was absolutely brilliant.http://miltonfriedman.blogspot.com/

If you haven't realized it by now - Friedman is a disgraced economist.
His ideas about government and the free market which he has been
preaching for decades has been contradicted by actions and events
which caused this current recession. At a loss for how to fix this
current mess and salvage his own theories about economics from
the crapper - he has gone into hiding. Given the current state of
the USA economy, Friedman is not going to be a mainstream
media economic authority source first choice.

hmmm. maybe Fox News will give him a second chance?

[Jane Galt]

Post by Neo
If you haven't realized it by now - Friedman is a disgraced economist.
His ideas about government and the free market which he has been
preaching for decades has been contradicted by actions and events
which caused this current recession. At a loss for how to fix this
current mess and salvage his own theories about economics from
the crapper - he has gone into hiding.

Shows how much you know. Yeah very DEEP hiding, 6 feet under, he's been dead
for years.

Post by Neo
Given the current state of
the USA economy, Friedman is not going to be a mainstream
media economic authority source first choice.
hmmm. maybe Fox News will give him a second chance?

Maybe you're on the side of those who think that because we have massive debt
and spending problems, massive more debt and spending will solve them?
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Neo]

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
If you haven't realized it by now - Friedman is a disgraced economist.
His ideas about government and the free market which he has been
preaching for decades has been contradicted by actions and events
which caused this current recession.  At a loss for how to fix this
current mess and salvage his own theories about economics from
the crapper - he has gone into hiding.

Shows how much you know. Yeah very DEEP hiding, 6 feet under, he's been dead
for years.

Post by Neo
Given the current state of
the USA economy,  Friedman is not going to be a mainstream
media economic  authority source first choice.
hmmm. maybe Fox News will give him a second chance?

Maybe you're on the side of those who think that because we have massive debt
and spending problems, massive more debt and spending will solve them?

And maybe you're a permanent resident of an insane asylum?

Yeah, IMHO Friedman is an arrogant elitist Ivory tower talking head
whose diatribes have been discredited and who is now in disfavor..

Ronald Reagan said the same stuff you said in the
beginning of his presidency only to leave the country
with largest massive debt and spending problem in
the nation's history. When Bush Senior promised
"Read My Lips - No new taxes" to win the presidency
after Reagan only to eat his words two years later
by raising taxes. Yeah, I've been down that road
before with a Trickle-down Theory T-shirt.

I'm tired of the political double talk crap.

You can start your revolution without me!

[AMuzi]

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
If you haven't realized it by now - Friedman is a disgraced economist.
His ideas about government and the free market which he has been
preaching for decades has been contradicted by actions and events
which caused this current recession. At a loss for how to fix this
current mess and salvage his own theories about economics from
the crapper - he has gone into hiding.

Shows how much you know. Yeah very DEEP hiding, 6 feet under, he's been dead
for years.

Post by Neo
Given the current state of
the USA economy, Friedman is not going to be a mainstream
media economic authority source first choice.
hmmm. maybe Fox News will give him a second chance?

Maybe you're on the side of those who think that because we have massive debt
and spending problems, massive more debt and spending will solve them?

That's working well in Japan! Only twenty years of
stagnation and morass so far. More spending and more
taxation should lead to growth and wealth any decade now.

[Jane Galt]

Post by AMuzi

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
If you haven't realized it by now - Friedman is a disgraced economist.
His ideas about government and the free market which he has been
preaching for decades has been contradicted by actions and events
which caused this current recession. At a loss for how to fix this
current mess and salvage his own theories about economics from
the crapper - he has gone into hiding.

Shows how much you know. Yeah very DEEP hiding, 6 feet under, he's been
dead for years.

Post by Neo
Given the current state of
the USA economy, Friedman is not going to be a mainstream
media economic authority source first choice.
hmmm. maybe Fox News will give him a second chance?

Maybe you're on the side of those who think that because we have
massive debt and spending problems, massive more debt and spending will
solve them?

That's working well in Japan! Only twenty years of
stagnation and morass so far. More spending and more
taxation should lead to growth and wealth any decade now.

Yeah, it's like me personally making $20k a year and running up $20k of
debt, then thinking that if I only run it up to $40k, the blue bird of
prosperity will come back to me at last!

Right!
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Neo]

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
US government regulation of electricity kept the prices down.
US government deregulation of electricity has lead to dramatic price
increases
as well as market manipulation and speculation (e.g. Enron Scandal)

.

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
US government deregulation of Wall Street lead to the Global Economic
Financial Meltdown and our current recession which in turn has
forced
state governments to look for new ways to raise revenue and
taxes

That's just crazy.
Government reg has never done anything good for us.

No not crazy just the facts.
However, the facts can be bad or good depending on your point of view.

Relativism.

Naming Calling are for the clueless.
What is Good and Bad is for idle philosophers.

If you want to go back to
Ronald Reagan - I'd like you to remember that
phrase he famous touted about....

Trust but Verify ( Pro Veri Non Veri)

At this point in the game
I'd listen to any detailed concrete solution

But I want proof that an idea will work - a proof of concept

I want a TESTED idea - not some ivory tower holier than thou crap
TESTED ideas which have sufficient evidence/data.
TESTED ideas which have data whose analysis prove conclusively that a
concept/idea will work.

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
Government regulations kept electricity down by limiting profits/
earnings from the generation of electricity and in turn allowed
for a controlled marketplace (often a single source monopoly
on the source of electricity). Deregulation of electricity allows
an *open* market which allow multiple electricity providers
via one distribution channel but also allows a profit
on the generation of electricity. However, the expansion of
electrical providers never really materialize because of
the large capital cost -so hence there are only a few electrical providers.
Thus advantages of competition in an *open market* for deregulation
of electric utilities never materialized. Instead the electric
utility market changed from a monopoly to an oligiopoly.

...

Post by Jane Galt
But if the free market was allowed to work, without monopolies ( franchises
) people would be able to compete to sell us electricity.
Oh, how horrible! Allowing profit! We'll all be doomed at the hands of the
greedy capitalist running dog pigs!
Yeah, government monopolies do that, and raise costs in the process.
How could they, with government sanctioned monopolies?
Quelle surprise.

...

When the government monoploy on electricity was dismantled
all did not go as planned. Deregulation of electricity allowed
for franchises to occur as well as for individuals (via Net Metering)
to sell electricity. In theory - atleast by Friedman - the
deregulation of electricity SHOULD have allowed the
invisible hand of Adam Smith and Ayn Rand to work -
BUT the surprising result was that Adam Smith and Ayn
Rand took a hike and decided to play hooky. What happen
was that rather than investing capital to create a competitive
open market by create new sources for electric power
- venture capital went into CONSOLIDATION of the
power grid and to creating a defacto MONOPOLY for
trading of electric power between regional power
grid (aka Enron) and raising the price of the existing
electric power available to generate a profit. Not surprisingly
this was a cheap way to make money. A monopoly
is the surest way to make a profit and the safest
investment - hence, this is a free markets natural
tendency -- to consolidate the market under
one huge and powerful monopolistic
titan like corporation regardless of whether it has
government support or not. Just as there is a tendency
for societies to create big government, there is also
a tendency for societies to create big business.

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo
Deregulation also allowed for
the consolidation of the power grid infrastruction which lead
to large corporate power companies like Enron. The lack of
oversight and price controls for the purchasing and distribution
of electric power lead to price manipulation in California recently
by Enron. This lead to higher prices for electricity in California,
record profits for Enron, a Congressional Hearing, and
finally the Enron Scandal. For the traders who made
alot of cash from manipulating the price of electricity in
California deregulation was manna from heaven. For
the people stuck with the high electric bills - it was
hell on earth. However, wasn't it President Lincoln
who said - you are about as happy as you make up
your mind you that want to be?

Lincoln was a tyrant IMO. Not because I'm fond of slavery, I never have
been, but because he rendered the union like the mafia or the Hotel
California - "you can check out any time you like, but you can never
leave".
By the way, where in the Constitution does it say that states may vote to
join the union but may NOT vote to leave it?

If one could cut proverbial baby into two
so each whore can have a piece
which part of the baby would you want?

[Jane Galt]

Post by Neo

Post by Jane Galt
Lincoln was a tyrant IMO. Not because I'm fond of slavery, I never have
been, but because he rendered the union like the mafia or the Hotel
California - "you can check out any time you like, but you can never
leave".
By the way, where in the Constitution does it say that states may vote
to join the union but may NOT vote to leave it?

If one could cut proverbial baby into two
so each whore can have a piece
which part of the baby would you want?

It's not a baby, it's a collective of individuals who formed states and voted
to join a union. Now the union is divided into radical forced-collectivist
states like California etc. and those that are far upscale from those degrees
of forced-collectivist depravity.

So just answer the question: Where in the Constitution does it say that
states may vote to join the union but may NOT vote to leave it?
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Neo]

Post by Jane Galt

Post by Neo

Post by Jane Galt
Lincoln was a tyrant IMO. Not because I'm fond of slavery, I never have
been, but because he rendered the union like the mafia or the Hotel
California - "you can check out any time you like, but you can never
leave".
By the way, where in the Constitution does it say that states may vote
to join the union but may NOT vote to leave it?

If one could cut proverbial baby into two
     so each whore can have a piece
         which  part of the baby would you want?

It's not a baby, it's a collective of individuals who formed states and voted
to join a union. Now the union is divided into radical forced-collectivist
states like California etc. and those that are far upscale from those degrees
of forced-collectivist depravity.

You are very into this name calling and irrational fear mongering
stuff aren't you?

First of all state governments are republics - not collectives.

Second, from day one, the union has always been a place of competing
ideas.
Our political process enables us to publically
rationally examine each idea that we may
enlighten and to uplift ourselves as a society

Post by Jane Galt
So just answer the question: Where in the Constitution does it say that
states may vote to join the union but may NOT vote to leave it?

Geez
How can you be an American Revolutionary
when you don't know a Marxist behind from our Constitution?.

There is no provision in the Constitution for a state to leave the
union,
HENCE a state can not leave the union UNTIL a provision to do so has
been added.

Not even the Tea Party is
advocating leaving the union - that's crazy talk..

[Bob Cooper]

In article <bf4dbbf8-9697-4acd-9888-800e386c5d26
@t2g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, ***@gmail.com says...

Post by Neo
You are very into this name calling and irrational fear mongering
stuff aren't you?

All the wackos are into that, besides posting their failed trash
philosopies in inappropriate newsgroups.
Only chance to for them find somebody to talk to.
That would be you.

[Neo]

Post by Bob Cooper
In article <bf4dbbf8-9697-4acd-9888-800e386c5d26
@t2g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, ***@gmail.com says...

Post by Neo
You are very into this name calling and irrational fear mongering
stuff aren't you?

All the wackos are into that, besides posting their failed trash
philosopies in inappropriate newsgroups.
Only chance to for them find somebody to talk to.
That would be you.

my apologies.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Jane Galt
That's just crazy. Government reg has never done anything good for us.

If you feel this way, I suggest you move to Somalia and stop trying to
mess the US up. America, love it or leave it.
--scott

[Jane Galt]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Jane Galt
That's just crazy. Government reg has never done anything good for us.

If you feel this way, I suggest you move to Somalia and stop trying to
mess the US up. America, love it or leave it.
--scott

No the marxists are the ones who need to leave. There are much friendlier
places like Cuba and North Korea just waiting for you with open arms.

I'd like to get MY country back to its roots of inalienable individual
rights.
--
- Jane Galt

You can be with the
Marxist revolution
or with the
American revolution,
your choice.
Me? I'm an
American Revolutionary!

http://www.cafepress.com/A_REVOLUTIONARY

[Neo]

Post by john
"So you think the Chevrolet Volt electric car will cost too much? Tell
that to the Chevy dealer who has already decided to charge $20,000
over the sticker price.
That's right. Months before the first Volt lands on a showroom floor,
there's enough excitement that the dealer -- who earns a living
calculating what the market will bear -- is charging nearly 50% more
than General Motors' asking price for the revolutionary car.
If that's any yardstick, the 2011 Volt is drastically underpriced.
Supply and demand, baby. It's the free enterprise system."
Read more: Mark Phelan: Dealers' extra charge for Volt is simply
supply and demand | freep.com | Detroit Free Presshttp://www.freep.com/article/20100808/COL14/8080504/1331/business01/D...

When people start claiming that Chevy Volts
accelerate on their own on the san diego freeway
and the brakes do not work,
I am sure that Chevy dealer will be selling
Chevy Volts far below sticker price... :-)