Brakes unable to stop runaway Lexus in California?

"john" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:856b26a6-caca-4e44-959b-***@r24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
So slamming on the brakes enough to cause tires to catch fire still
can't stop the car? That's scary!

"In a 911 call, one of the passengers said the Lexus was speeding at
120 m.p.h., and witnesses said the cars tires were on fire when it
crashed possibly from the driver slamming on the brakes."

http://www.freep.com/article/20090930/BUSINESS01/309300004/1315/Toyota-recalls-3.8-million-vehicles--Mats-can-cause-stuck-accelerators

<JS>
I'm thinking the driver must have rode the brakes far longer than was
needed to stop the car. I have to wonder how ling it took him to figure out
that the gas pedal was stuck ...

</JS>

Sir F. A. Rien

2009-10-02 15:16:19 UTC

Post by john
So slamming on the brakes enough to cause tires to catch fire still
can't stop the car? That's scary!
"In a 911 call, one of the passengers said the Lexus was speeding at
120 m.p.h., and witnesses said the cars tires were on fire when it
crashed possibly from the driver slamming on the brakes."
http://www.freep.com/article/20090930/BUSINESS01/309300004/1315/Toyota-recalls-3.8-million-vehicles--Mats-can-cause-stuck-accelerators
<JS>
I'm thinking the driver must have rode the brakes far longer than was
needed to stop the car. I have to wonder how ling it took him to figure out
that the gas pedal was stuck ...

I wonder why none of the CAFA idiots had the brains to either shift out of
gear [to hell with a blown engine] or just turn OFF the ignition!

Shows the 'quality' of current driver education in CAFA Land ... !

Jeff Strickland

2009-10-03 01:46:09 UTC

I wonder why none of the CAFA idiots had the brains to either shift out of
gear [to hell with a blown engine] or just turn OFF the ignition!
Shows the 'quality' of current driver education in CAFA Land ... !

CAFA?

The driver was a CHP officer, one likes to think he would have been trained
on stopping a car in an emergency.

Sir F. A. Rien

2009-10-03 15:05:25 UTC

Post by Jeff Strickland

I wonder why none of the CAFA idiots had the brains to either shift out of
gear [to hell with a blown engine] or just turn OFF the ignition!
Shows the 'quality' of current driver education in CAFA Land ... !

CAFA?
The driver was a CHP officer, one likes to think he would have been trained
on stopping a car in an emergency.

Yeah one would LIKE to think, but then one would also LIKE to think they are
both civil and serving oriented.

Ca. F. A.
... or do I need to Bartosh further?

Jeff Strickland

2009-10-04 20:48:11 UTC

Post by Jeff Strickland

I wonder why none of the CAFA idiots had the brains to either shift out of
gear [to hell with a blown engine] or just turn OFF the ignition!
Shows the 'quality' of current driver education in CAFA Land ... !

CAFA?
The driver was a CHP officer, one likes to think he would have been trained
on stopping a car in an emergency.

Yeah one would LIKE to think, but then one would also LIKE to think they are
both civil and serving oriented.
Ca. F. A.
... or do I need to Bartosh further?

Looks like you're a Valley Girl, but I don't do valley speak.

Adam

2009-10-02 03:34:44 UTC

If you have a runaway, turn on your fourway blinkers to telegraph your
fellow drivers you have a situation.Throw the shift into Neutral
(Notice that N is right next to D and you can usually shift into it
without pressing that shift button). Change into the right lane with a
suitable shoulder and coast or brake down to a safe slow speed.
Transfer into the shoulder and then stop. Turn off car. Breathe. Try
to correct any correctable condition. Loose water bottles tend to roll
under the accel pedal as well.

I am an advocate of driving refresher courses and people doing EVOC
courses. You be surprised how stupid people get after 6 months passing
their driving exam.

CEG

2009-10-02 04:37:57 UTC

If you have a runaway, turn on your fourway blinkers to telegraph your
fellow drivers you have a situation.Throw the shift into Neutral
(Notice that N is right next to D and you can usually shift into it
without pressing that shift button). Change into the right lane with a
suitable shoulder and coast or brake down to a safe slow speed.
Transfer into the shoulder and then stop. Turn off car. Breathe. Try
to correct any correctable condition. Loose water bottles tend to roll
under the accel pedal as well.
I am an advocate of driving refresher courses and people doing EVOC
courses. You be surprised how stupid people get after 6 months passing
their driving exam.

I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
all that is needed to stop a runaway car.

Adam

2009-10-02 06:04:09 UTC

Post by CEG
I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
all that is needed to stop a runaway car.

Your age is showing. Some of the cars with those RFID chips inside the
keys you cant do that. At least with those cars with the Press to
Start button can kill the motor, but you have to read the manual
first. Some you have to hold the start button , some you have to press
twice. confusing aint it?

Turning off the ignition by turning the ignition key is not
necessarily the best way to stop a runaway. Most people twist the key
striaght to locking the steering column, making a bad situation worse.

The driver of that MVA was not the owner of the car, making the
situation worse, driving a unfamiliar car. Best practice with such an
auto is to throw it into neutral and let the rev limiter engage when
the engine red-lines.

CEG

2009-10-02 10:41:12 UTC

Post by CEG
I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
all that is needed to stop a runaway car.

Are they making cars that difficult where you actually have to read
the manual to use it?? It seems to me they need to make it easier to
shut a vehicle down.

Post by Adam
Turning off the ignition by turning the ignition key is not
necessarily the best way to stop a runaway. Most people twist the key
striaght to locking the steering column, making a bad situation worse.

If the car is in gear you can't turn the key to the lock position

c***@snyder.on.ca

2009-10-02 15:24:11 UTC

Post by CEG
I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
all that is needed to stop a runaway car.

Your age is showing. Some of the cars with those RFID chips inside the
keys you cant do that. At least with those cars with the Press to
Start button can kill the motor, but you have to read the manual
first. Some you have to hold the start button , some you have to press
twice. confusing aint it?
Turning off the ignition by turning the ignition key is not
necessarily the best way to stop a runaway. Most people twist the key
striaght to locking the steering column, making a bad situation worse.
The driver of that MVA was not the owner of the car, making the
situation worse, driving a unfamiliar car. Best practice with such an
auto is to throw it into neutral and let the rev limiter engage when
the engine red-lines.

Won't even get close to redline. It will bounce around at 3500RPM in
neutral.

Ron Dargenio

2009-11-16 01:32:35 UTC

Post by CEG
I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
all that is needed to stop a runaway car.

Your age is showing. Some of the cars with those RFID chips inside the
keys you cant do that. At least with those cars with the Press to
Start button can kill the motor, but you have to read the manual
first. Some you have to hold the start button , some you have to press
twice. confusing aint it?
Turning off the ignition by turning the ignition key �is not
necessarily the best way to stop a runaway. Most people twist the key
striaght to locking the steering column, making a bad situation worse.
The driver of that MVA was not the owner of the car, making the
situation worse, driving a unfamiliar car. Best practice with such an
auto is to throw it into neutral and let the rev limiter engage when
the engine red-lines.

It may be possible to make a throttle stick, but here are the laws of
physics:
No car can overpower its brakes. From any speed. If your foot is on
the brake pedal the car will come to a stop. From 10, 20, 80, 120 MPH.
I have personally done this on a closed track. When people say the car
continues to accelerate despite "pressing with all their might" on the
brakes, their foot wasn't on the brake pedal.

Simple. End of story.

Michael Golden

2009-11-16 03:43:00 UTC

Post by Ron Dargenio

Most people twist the key striaght to locking the steering column,
making a bad situation worse.

It may be possible to make a throttle stick, but here are the laws of
No car can overpower its brakes. From any speed. If your foot is on
the brake pedal the car will come to a stop. From 10, 20, 80, 120 MPH.
I have personally done this on a closed track. When people say the car
continues to accelerate despite "pressing with all their might" on the
brakes, their foot wasn't on the brake pedal.
Simple. End of story.

The cars I've driven, you have to REMOVE the key to get the steering
column to lock.

Reed

2009-11-16 05:18:53 UTC

Post by Ron Dargenio

Post by CEG
I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
all that is needed to stop a runaway car.

Your age is showing. Some of the cars with those RFID chips inside the
keys you cant do that. At least with those cars with the Press to
Start button can kill the motor, but you have to read the manual
first. Some you have to hold the start button , some you have to press
twice. confusing aint it?
Turning off the ignition by turning the ignition key �is not
necessarily the best way to stop a runaway. Most people twist the key
striaght to locking the steering column, making a bad situation worse.
The driver of that MVA was not the owner of the car, making the
situation worse, driving a unfamiliar car. Best practice with such an
auto is to throw it into neutral and let the rev limiter engage when
the engine red-lines.

If the engine is held, or stuck, at full throttle (say 120 mph), can
the car be stopped by the brakes ?? I have not tried it myself, but I
doubt any stock brakes could overcome full throttle.

Sir F. A. Rien

2009-11-16 15:32:40 UTC

Post by Ron Dargenio

Post by CEG
I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
all that is needed to stop a runaway car.

Your age is showing. Some of the cars with those RFID chips inside the
keys you cant do that. At least with those cars with the Press to
Start button can kill the motor, but you have to read the manual
first. Some you have to hold the start button , some you have to press
twice. confusing aint it?
Turning off the ignition by turning the ignition key ?is not
necessarily the best way to stop a runaway. Most people twist the key
striaght to locking the steering column, making a bad situation worse.
The driver of that MVA was not the owner of the car, making the
situation worse, driving a unfamiliar car. Best practice with such an
auto is to throw it into neutral and let the rev limiter engage when
the engine red-lines.

Tell me, do you charge for your bull shite by the ounce, pound, or as here
by the TON?

Having been in A chebby with a stuck pedal, the brakes will -=slow=- but not
overcome the engine! You have to get it out of gear or turn it off !

Stop playing ostrich with your colon!

Mark

2009-11-16 17:22:03 UTC

Post by Ron Dargenio
It may be possible to make a throttle stick, but here are the laws of
No car can overpower its brakes. From any speed. If your foot is on
the brake pedal the car will come to a stop. From 10, 20, 80, 120 MPH.
I have personally done this on a closed track. When people say the car
continues to accelerate despite "pressing with all their might" on the
brakes, their foot wasn't on the brake pedal.
Simple. End of story.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

you are wrong, it is not that simple,

at full throttle, there is little vacumm for the brake power booster,
once the storage vacumm is used up you loose the power boost to your
brakes,,

do you think you can over come a full throttle engine with power
brakes that have lost their power boost...

Mark

Ray O

2009-11-16 20:37:56 UTC

Post by Mark

you are wrong, it is not that simple,
at full throttle, there is little vacumm for the brake power booster,
once the storage vacumm is used up you loose the power boost to your
brakes,,
do you think you can over come a full throttle engine with power
brakes that have lost their power boost...
Mark

Even with no power assist, pedal effort does not increase with vehicle or
engine speed. Before power assisted brakes were introduced, people
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal. While it
does take more pedal effort to brake a vehicle that was designed to have
power assist and that lost the assist, the amount of effort is more or less
the same whether the car is traveling at 30 or 60 MPH and with the engine at
idle or at redline. Stopping distances will increase with higher speeds and
higher engine RPM, just like it does when the power assist is working.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

hls

2009-11-16 21:04:09 UTC

"Ray O" <***@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message Before
power assisted brakes were introduced, people

Post by Ray O
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.

That is true, Ray, but also in those days we had front and rear drums, for
the most part.
Discs required a lot more pressure than drums, hence the power assist brakes
became
a necessity rather than just a luxury convenience.

Heron McKeister

2009-11-16 21:27:59 UTC

Post by Ray O
power assisted brakes were introduced, people

Post by Ray O
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.

I had 4 wheel disc brakes on my '74 Fiat 124 Spyder,
was the best stopping vehicle I had owned at the time
and it neither had nor required power assisted brakes.

N8N

2009-11-16 21:49:52 UTC

Post by Ray O
power assisted brakes were introduced, people

Post by Ray O
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.

That is true, Ray, but also in those days we had front and rear drums, for
the most part.
Discs required a lot more pressure than drums, hence the power assist

brakes

Post by Ray O
became
a necessity rather than just a luxury convenience.

I had 4 wheel disc brakes on my '74 Fiat 124 Spyder,
was the best stopping vehicle I had owned at the time
and it neither had nor required power assisted brakes.

Well, you're both right - discs *do* require more line pressure than
drums, but a Fiat Spyder is a fairly light car so it doesn't matter
all that much. I used to have a Porsche 914 with manual discs, but in
general, manual discs are pretty rare and unlikely to be found on
anything but small, light sports cars.

nate

Heron McKeister

2009-11-16 21:53:53 UTC

Post by Ray O
power assisted brakes were introduced, people

Post by Ray O
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.

That is true, Ray, but also in those days we had front and rear drums, for
the most part.
Discs required a lot more pressure than drums, hence the power assist

brakes

Post by Ray O
became
a necessity rather than just a luxury convenience.

I had 4 wheel disc brakes on my '74 Fiat 124 Spyder,
was the best stopping vehicle I had owned at the time
and it neither had nor required power assisted brakes.

dsi1

2009-11-16 22:47:45 UTC

Post by N8N
Well, you're both right - discs *do* require more line pressure than
drums, but a Fiat Spyder is a fairly light car so it doesn't matter
all that much. I used to have a Porsche 914 with manual discs, but in
general, manual discs are pretty rare and unlikely to be found on
anything but small, light sports cars.
nate

My brother had a 914. It was a great beauty. Too bad the brakes sucked.
I guess there's no such thing as stop-and-go traffic in Germany. :-)

hls

2009-11-16 22:01:35 UTC

Post by Ray O
power assisted brakes were introduced, people

Post by Ray O
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.

That is true, Ray, but also in those days we had front and rear drums, for
the most part.
Discs required a lot more pressure than drums, hence the power assist

brakes

Post by Ray O
became
a necessity rather than just a luxury convenience.

I had 4 wheel disc brakes on my '74 Fiat 124 Spyder,
was the best stopping vehicle I had owned at the time
and it neither had nor required power assisted brakes.

Of course, there are exceptions to everything anyone says on here.
Everybody
seems to scan for the exception rather than to consider the truth of the
principle.

Weight plays a big part in this. Obviously bicycles and motorcycles may
also have
disc brakes, and they can be stopped easily by a standard human being
because they
weigh so little. As the car gets heavier, it becomes harder and harder to
stop an
unassisted disc brake system. The design of the braking system is another
factor...
the makeup of the pad, the surface area of the pad, the size of the caliper
pistons (
thus mechanical advantage designed into the system) all enter in.

Drum brakes have a pseudoservo action which draws one of the shoes onto the
drum surface and gives some mechanical advantage. They may also have a much
larger surface area than disc brake pads. Even so, power drum brakes were
used
in a lot of American cars before discs took over.

Disc brakes, per se, require more pressure than drum brakes, in general.
Their
advantages, IN GENERAL, are that they do not fade as badly when heated,
and they perform better in the wet. Unsprung weight arguments can be made,
but you can engineer lightweight drum systems that could compare with many
disc caliper systems. Porsche used them for a long time.

For the larger and heavier American cars of the time (my reference), you had
to have power disc brake assists to offset the weak and lazy asses of most
Americans.

Heron McKeister

2009-11-17 21:11:50 UTC

Before

Post by hls

Post by Ray O
power assisted brakes were introduced, people

Post by Ray O
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.

That is true, Ray, but also in those days we had front and rear drums, for
the most part.
Discs required a lot more pressure than drums, hence the power assist

brakes

Post by Ray O
became
a necessity rather than just a luxury convenience.

I had 4 wheel disc brakes on my '74 Fiat 124 Spyder,
was the best stopping vehicle I had owned at the time
and it neither had nor required power assisted brakes.

Of course, there are exceptions to everything anyone says on here.

Including that statement?

Post by hls
Everybody
seems to scan for the exception rather than to consider the truth of the
principle.

Really, everybody?

Post by hls
Weight plays a big part in this. Obviously bicycles and motorcycles may
also have
disc brakes, and they can be stopped easily by a standard human being
because they
weigh so little.

But no one was addressing cycles.

Post by hls
As the car gets heavier, it becomes harder and harder to
stop an
unassisted disc brake system. The design of the braking system is another
factor...
the makeup of the pad, the surface area of the pad, the size of the caliper
pistons (
thus mechanical advantage designed into the system) all enter in.

Not to mention such esoterics as the boiling point and vapor
pressure of the fluid, the universal gravitational constant ... ;-)

Post by hls
Drum brakes have a pseudoservo action which draws one of the shoes onto the
drum surface and gives some mechanical advantage.

Dependent upon application, ie whether a twin leading
or leading/trailing design and the direction of rotation.

Post by hls
They may also have a much
larger surface area than disc brake pads.

Are you alluding to swept area or static contact surface?

Post by hls
Even so, power drum brakes were
used
in a lot of American cars before discs took over.
Disc brakes, per se, require more pressure than drum brakes, in general.
Their
advantages, IN GENERAL, are that they do not fade as badly when heated,
and they perform better in the wet. Unsprung weight arguments can be made,
but you can engineer lightweight drum systems that could compare with many
disc caliper systems. Porsche used them for a long time.

I was always partial to the finned aluminum GM drums.

Post by hls
For the larger and heavier American cars of the time (my reference),

Implicit perhaps, I saw no explicit reference.

Post by hls
you had
to have power disc brake assists to offset the weak and lazy asses of most
Americans.

No, reducing the ratio of master cylinder piston to aggregate
wheel cylinder cross sectional or working surface areas (being
careful to consider volume amounts and pedal travel) would
accomplish the mechanical advantage provded by power assist.

But I'm just screwing with you, we're in fundamental agreement.

hls

2009-11-17 22:43:29 UTC

Post by Heron McKeister
But I'm just screwing with you, we're in fundamental agreement.

I know, and I dont mind that.. I get tired of all the "yeah, but" and "what
if"
bullshit. There are always factors which can be swayed, moved, massaged.

s***@some.domain

2009-11-17 04:07:34 UTC

Post by Ray O
power assisted brakes were introduced, people

Post by Ray O
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.

i wonder about that. i don't think bikes are much different. it tales a lot
more pressure to stop my 650 triumph with a doubling leading shoe front than
a xt 750 jamaha, which had one disc front and weighs more.

Ray O

2009-11-16 21:28:55 UTC