All wheel drive vs. front wheel drive SUV's

[Paul L]

what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

[Ray O]

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

When comparing AWD vs. FWD:

An AWD vehicle will get better traction and handle better in the rain, snow,
and other slippery surfaces like leaf-covered streets. In a climate like CA
where it doesn't rain all summer, the first few rains of the season make the
oils rise off of the road surface, making them very slippery. An AWD
vehicle will also be slightly more stable in conditions where hydroplaning
occurs.

On the negative side, the AWD hardware weighs more and has more drag on the
drivetrain so it will get poorer fuel economy, and there are 2 extra
differentials to maintain.

[who]

Post by Ray O
When comparing AWD vs. FWD

It's nice to have, but not that necessary.
Winter tires are best for new dry snow, something we seldom have on
Canada's urban and main highways. With salting slush is the norm.
So IMO under these conditions All season tires are best.
ABS brakes are very important, should be a legal requirement on new cars.

What is more important is common sense and a feel for driving on very
slippery roads.
Although I've driven all my life in Canadian snowy conditions, the 40
yrs going to the western Canadian ski hills in all conditions, I still
practice my winter driving driving skills with the first snow each
season, including always driving slower than the slip point.
This has meant I get there before many AWD, 4WD, etc. vehicles which
often are in the ditch on their roofs.

Unfortunately recent vehicle design is often not desirable on snowy
roads, this includes excessively low profile tires which float on the
snow at speed.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by who
Winter tires are best for new dry snow,

No, not at all. Winter tires are best for winter--they are made of
different compounds, the combination of which is dedicated to the rigors
of cold temperatures.

Summer tires are made of different compounds, the combination of which
is dedicated to performance in summer temperatures and lack of snow and
ice.

All-season tires are a compromise, although getting better all the time.

Winter tires aren't just a matter of the tread pattern.

Post by who
With salting slush is the norm.
So IMO under these conditions All season tires are best.

You may have that opinion, but you'd be wrong.

[Jay Somerset >]

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 19:49:05 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by who
Winter tires are best for new dry snow,

No, not at all. Winter tires are best for winter--they are made of
different compounds, the combination of which is dedicated to the rigors
of cold temperatures.
Summer tires are made of different compounds, the combination of which
is dedicated to performance in summer temperatures and lack of snow and
ice.
All-season tires are a compromise, although getting better all the time.
Winter tires aren't just a matter of the tread pattern.

Post by who
With salting slush is the norm.
So IMO under these conditions All season tires are best.

You may have that opinion, but you'd be wrong.

Seems clearly that you hold a minority opinion here!

[dizzy]

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by who
With salting slush is the norm.
So IMO under these conditions All season tires are best.

You may have that opinion, but you'd be wrong.

Seems clearly that you hold a minority opinion here!

Oh, does it "clearly" seem that way? On ice and snow, Winter tires
are better than all-seasons, obviously.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You may have that opinion, but you'd be wrong.

Seems clearly that you hold a minority opinion here!

Well, it's true that people are stupid.

Doesn't surprise me one bit.

Of course, the laws of physics don't care about majority opinion.

[jdoe]

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 21:32:24 -0500, Jay Somerset

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by who
With salting slush is the norm.
So IMO under these conditions All season tires are best.

You may have that opinion, but you'd be wrong.

Seems clearly that you hold a minority opinion here!

while it might be a minority opinion, it is not a wrong opinion,
I have AWD and I drive a mb which I put on winter/snow tires on, I
feel safer in the MB with snows on than I do in my awd cars.
I have spun out in awd cars, I've never spun out in the mb with the
snows on

[Jay Somerset >]

Post by jdoe
On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 21:32:24 -0500, Jay Somerset

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by who
With salting slush is the norm.
So IMO under these conditions All season tires are best.

You may have that opinion, but you'd be wrong.

Seems clearly that you hold a minority opinion here!

while it might be a minority opinion, it is not a wrong opinion,
I have AWD and I drive a mb which I put on winter/snow tires on, I
feel safer in the MB with snows on than I do in my awd cars.
I have spun out in awd cars, I've never spun out in the mb with the
snows on

The original statement, to which I took exception, was that snow tires on
FWD was superior to AWD with all-seasons.

[jdoe]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:13:07 -0500, Jay Somerset

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by jdoe
On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 21:32:24 -0500, Jay Somerset

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by who
With salting slush is the norm.
So IMO under these conditions All season tires are best.

You may have that opinion, but you'd be wrong.

Seems clearly that you hold a minority opinion here!

while it might be a minority opinion, it is not a wrong opinion,
I have AWD and I drive a mb which I put on winter/snow tires on, I
feel safer in the MB with snows on than I do in my awd cars.
I have spun out in awd cars, I've never spun out in the mb with the
snows on

The original statement, to which I took exception, was that snow tires on
FWD was superior to AWD with all-seasons.

as long as he has the snow tires on all 4 wheels snow tires are
always better than all seasons

[dizzy]

Post by jdoe
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:13:07 -0500, Jay Somerset

Post by Jay Somerset >
The original statement, to which I took exception, was that snow tires on
FWD was superior to AWD with all-seasons.

as long as he has the snow tires on all 4 wheels snow tires are
always better than all seasons

I used to have a Prelude with Nokian snows, and it was incredible in
the snow.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by dizzy
I used to have a Prelude with Nokian snows, and it was incredible in
the snow.

Try the Nokian WR all season passenger tire. It's the only one with the
snowflake designator for winter driving--and I have to say, it's an
amazing all-season tire. Quiet in the summer and no doubt a Nokian tire
with the snowflake come winter storms, from snow to slush.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by jdoe
while it might be a minority opinion, it is not a wrong opinion,
I have AWD and I drive a mb which I put on winter/snow tires on, I
feel safer in the MB with snows on than I do in my awd cars.
I have spun out in awd cars, I've never spun out in the mb with the
snows on

The original statement, to which I took exception, was that snow tires on
FWD was superior to AWD with all-seasons.

You take exception to it out of your ignorance of the facts.

[Jay Somerset >]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:28:39 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by jdoe
while it might be a minority opinion, it is not a wrong opinion,
I have AWD and I drive a mb which I put on winter/snow tires on, I
feel safer in the MB with snows on than I do in my awd cars.
I have spun out in awd cars, I've never spun out in the mb with the
snows on

The original statement, to which I took exception, was that snow tires on
FWD was superior to AWD with all-seasons.

You take exception to it out of your ignorance of the facts.

I guess there is little point debating anything with you. Into my killfile
you now go -- feel free to do likewise. :-)

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jay Somerset >
The original statement, to which I took exception, was that snow tires on
FWD was superior to AWD with all-seasons.

You take exception to it out of your ignorance of the facts.

I guess there is little point debating anything with you. Into my killfile
you now go -- feel free to do likewise. :-)

a) I said you were ignorant of the facts, which is true.

b) Anyone who feels a compelling need to declare his killfile entry to
the world, has problems.

[sharx35]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jay Somerset >
The original statement, to which I took exception, was that snow tires on
FWD was superior to AWD with all-seasons.

You take exception to it out of your ignorance of the facts.

I guess there is little point debating anything with you. Into my killfile
you now go -- feel free to do likewise. :-)

a) I said you were ignorant of the facts, which is true.
b) Anyone who feels a compelling need to declare his killfile entry to
the world, has problems.

Kill files are for losers who can't stand the truth.

[Jay Somerset >]

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 21:55:17 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jay Somerset >

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jay Somerset >
The original statement, to which I took exception, was that snow tires on
FWD was superior to AWD with all-seasons.

You take exception to it out of your ignorance of the facts.

I guess there is little point debating anything with you. Into my killfile
you now go -- feel free to do likewise. :-)

a) I said you were ignorant of the facts, which is true.
b) Anyone who feels a compelling need to declare his killfile entry to
the world, has problems.

R.I.P.

[Coyoteboy]

Post by Jay Somerset >
R.I.P.

Rant In Private?

[Jeff Strickland]

AWD vehicles are driven by all four tires, so they are inherently more
stable and predictable in adverse conditions. Having said that, there is not
a car on the road that can overcome sheer stupidity.

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Jeff Strickland
AWD vehicles are driven by all four tires, so they are inherently more
stable and predictable in adverse conditions.

False.

A two wheel drive car with snow tires (or tires otherwise appropriate
for conditions) will, on the road, always be more capable than an all
wheel drive vehicle with all-season or otherwise inappropriate tires.

[Coyoteboy]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jeff Strickland
AWD vehicles are driven by all four tires, so they are inherently more
stable and predictable in adverse conditions.

False.
A two wheel drive car with snow tires (or tires otherwise appropriate
for conditions) will, on the road, always be more capable than an all
wheel drive vehicle with all-season or otherwise inappropriate tires.

Talk about stating the obvious :)

[Jay Somerset >]

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 12:26:39 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jeff Strickland
AWD vehicles are driven by all four tires, so they are inherently more
stable and predictable in adverse conditions.

False.
A two wheel drive car with snow tires (or tires otherwise appropriate
for conditions) will, on the road, always be more capable than an all
wheel drive vehicle with all-season or otherwise inappropriate tires.

Not true -- it depends on the conditions!

[Bonehenge]

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 12:26:39 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jeff Strickland
AWD vehicles are driven by all four tires, so they are inherently more
stable and predictable in adverse conditions.

False.
A two wheel drive car with snow tires (or tires otherwise appropriate
for conditions) will, on the road, always be more capable than an all
wheel drive vehicle with all-season or otherwise inappropriate tires.

Not in my experience. I've had plenty of examples of all of them, and
yes, I buy good snow tires.

Also, snow is not the only "adverse" condition.

[sharx35]

Post by Jay Somerset >
On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 12:26:39 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jeff Strickland
AWD vehicles are driven by all four tires, so they are inherently more
stable and predictable in adverse conditions.

False.
A two wheel drive car with snow tires (or tires otherwise appropriate
for conditions) will, on the road, always be more capable than an all
wheel drive vehicle with all-season or otherwise inappropriate tires.

Not in my experience. I've had plenty of examples of all of them, and
yes, I buy good snow tires.
Also, snow is not the only "adverse" condition.

Unless one has to drive REGULARLY in a rural area, snow tires are marketed
for suckers. For most URBAN people, you do NOT need snow tires--GOOD all
season tires are adequate. I've lived in Edmonton Alberta, Canada..in the
great white north for SIXTY years and have been driving for 46 years.....in
all sorts of snow and ice conditions. Yeah, I've had to use a shovel the odd
time but that was usually when I insisted on parking in a spot that had 2
feet of snow.

[Ralph Mowery]

Post by Jeff Strickland
AWD vehicles are driven by all four tires, so they are inherently more
stable and predictable in adverse conditions. Having said that, there is
not a car on the road that can overcome sheer stupidity.

That last statement sure is true. Several years back I had a 91 camry and
was in a town about 30 miles away when it was snowing. The 4WDs were
passing me on the interstate, but about 5 miles down the road I was passing
them back as they were in the ditch. They thought just casue they could go
it was fine to go fast, they did not realise they could not turn or stop
much if any beter than a 2 wheel car.

[Learning Richard]

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

A FWD SUV is an overpriced vanity car that is most likely a mainenance
nightmare, and may even get some odd stares or a sound ass kicking at
the local chuckwagon bar.

An AWD SUV is an overpriced vanity car that is most likely a mainenance
nightmare, and will leave you questioning your motives as you sign that
monthly $500 car payment.

[Mike Hunter]

One advantage to AWD over FWD is the torque is biased to the rear in most
AWD versions, (although some are 50/50) thus reducing the dangerous tendency
to loose steering control upon deceleration that is common with FWD.


mike

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

[Stewart DIBBS]

Post by Mike Hunter
One advantage to AWD over FWD is the torque is biased to the rear in most
AWD versions, (although some are 50/50) thus reducing the dangerous
tendency to loose steering control upon deceleration that is common with
FWD.

Actually, no, where torque bias exists, its generally to the front wheels. I
don't know of any NORMALLY FWD car that has an AWD variant that biases
torque to the rear. There's lots of RWD vehicles with AWD/4WD variants that
runs to the front (most SUVs).

Examples are
- Honda CRV which is about 65/35 front rear (look at the diff ratios and the
rear diff hydro lock system)
- Chrysler "AWD" minivans are about 75/25 when its actually working, and
maybe 10% rear when its not, due to the rear drive being derived from the RH
front axle. Its an expensive system that only works because there's an
ABS/Traction system that gives limited AWD. Lose the ABS system and the
"AWD" becomes just excess weight.
- Early Mitsibishi Lancer GSR / EVO 1, EVO 2 with the W5M31 transmission
with about 65/35 bias to the front. The rear diff ratio was numerically
lower on the rear. Mitsu found this was unsuitable (and fragile) and
switched to the W5M33 series, see below.

Examples of 50/50 in normal operation are
- Mitsubishi Eclipse/Expo/Outlander/EVO 3+ Series with the center
diff/viscous coupler (W5M33 and W5M40 series transmissions and variants).
Front / Rear diff ratios are (almost) the same. Torque can vary somewhat
automatically F<-->R. In extreme situations the center viscous coupler locks
and you get back to 50-50.

-Audi Quatro uses an automaticlly controlled center diff that can be
progressively locked. Competition versions use (AFAIK) a Torsen diff.

- Subaru. Depending on one of at least three types of AWD (std, automatic
and WRX-std). The most capable is the WRX type with a Torsen center diff,
the less capable is the hydro clutch system in cars with the automatic
transmission.

[Mike Hunter]

Then do a bit more research, WBMA ;)

mike hunt

Post by Stewart DIBBS

Post by Mike Hunter
One advantage to AWD over FWD is the torque is biased to the rear in most
AWD versions, (although some are 50/50) thus reducing the dangerous
tendency to loose steering control upon deceleration that is common with
FWD.

Actually, no, where torque bias exists, its generally to the front wheels.
I don't know of any NORMALLY FWD car that has an AWD variant that biases
torque to the rear.

[Stewart DIBBS]

Post by Mike Hunter
Then do a bit more research, WBMA ;)

I'm not familiar with the WBMA acronym ...

I stand by my description of the Honda CRV, Mitsubishi and Subaru AWD
systems. Torque split is easy to decide simply by looking at the diff
ratios. Assuming the same size wheel, the normal operation torque split is
the ratio of front_diff/rear_diff ratios.

Please give us all the benefit of your superior knowledge, and tell us
specifically which AWD variants of a FWD vehicle bias the torque to the rear
wheels under normal operation conditions.

SD

[DH]

Post by Mike Hunter
One advantage to AWD over FWD is the torque is biased to the rear in most
AWD versions, (although some are 50/50) thus reducing the dangerous
tendency to loose steering control upon deceleration that is common with
FWD.
mike

A minor problem (particularly in a vehicle with a moderately-sized engine)
that is easily overcome by shifting to neutral and/or stepping on the
clutch, a practice I've also found useful in RWD vehicles.

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

[Mike Hunter]

You are correct, that is why most FWD vehicles can be bumped into neutral
without pressing a button or such. The difference is with RWD when that
happens, even a novice driver can detect what is happens when the rear loses
traction, while FWD drivers generally do not realize it is the cause of the
steering loss then does what is necessary to disengage the tranny. It
becomes even more pronounced with an automatic tranny, as it automatic drops
to a lower gear as speed decreases.

One of my homes is located on the outside of a curve at the bottom of a long
grade in northeast Pa. Whenever it gets sloppy I have FWD cars in my yard
as they apply brake, when the car losses steering control, rather than
disengages and riding through the turn ;)



mike hunt

.

Post by DH

Post by Mike Hunter
One advantage to AWD over FWD is the torque is biased to the rear in most
AWD versions, (although some are 50/50) thus reducing the dangerous
tendency to loose steering control upon deceleration that is common with
FWD.
mike

A minor problem (particularly in a vehicle with a moderately-sized engine)
that is easily overcome by shifting to neutral and/or stepping on the
clutch, a practice I've also found useful in RWD vehicles.

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[DH]

Post by Mike Hunter
You are correct, that is why most FWD vehicles can be bumped into neutral
without pressing a button or such. The difference is with RWD when that
happens, even a novice driver can detect what is happens when the rear
loses traction, while FWD drivers generally do not realize it is the cause
of the steering loss then does what is necessary to disengage the tranny.
It becomes even more pronounced with an automatic tranny, as it automatic
drops to a lower gear as speed decreases.
One of my homes is located on the outside of a curve at the bottom of a
long grade in northeast Pa. Whenever it gets sloppy I have FWD cars in my
yard as they apply brake, when the car losses steering control, rather
than disengages and riding through the turn ;)

Some of us have pink flamingos or birdbaths as lawn ornaments. FWD cars is
a tad unusual. :-)

Post by Mike Hunter
mike hunt
.

Post by DH

Post by Mike Hunter
One advantage to AWD over FWD is the torque is biased to the rear in
most AWD versions, (although some are 50/50) thus reducing the dangerous
tendency to loose steering control upon deceleration that is common with
FWD.
mike

A minor problem (particularly in a vehicle with a moderately-sized
engine) that is easily overcome by shifting to neutral and/or stepping on
the clutch, a practice I've also found useful in RWD vehicles.

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[b***@yahoo.com]

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

AWD is not really a safety feature, AWD helps you get going in the
mud/snow, the treads on your tires are a much more important safety
feature overall for stopping power and cornering

[ACAR]

Post by Paul L
what is the safety advantage of AWD vs. front wheel drive SUV's? All I
know is that AWD's don't get stuck in the mud as easily. Any other good
points?

IMHO, the safety advantage of AWD, for the majority of drivers, is less
than that afforded by good tires. There is considerable advantage to a
vehicle with a low center of gravity (car) vs. high center of gravity
(SUV/light truck) in slippery conditions.

These days AWD systems vary from vehicle to vehicle. Most are not full
time AWD; the second set of wheels is powered only when they start to
slip. Know what you are buying. If you live in the mountains where it
snows your neighbors will be happy to tell you all about AWD and 4WD
systems.

[chakis24]

neither. RWD. nothings more fun than rwd in the snow/rain or whatever.
and all wheel drive is different than 4wd.