CEO: Toyota vehicles lacked passion, must be more exciting

[john]

"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."

"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

Toyota's sales have fallen 38 percent in the first six months of the
year -- to 770,000 cars and trucks from nearly 1.25 million vehicles
in the first six months of 2008. U.S. industry auto sales fell 35
percent in the first half of the year.

http://detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210324/1148/Toyota+says+it+s+no+longer+profitable+in+North+America

[Vic Smith]

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

Get some of the GM geniuses over there to design the cars.
That'll work.

--Vic

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Vic Smith

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

Get some of the GM geniuses over there to design the cars.
That'll work.
--Vic

Why do you hate Toyota?

[Ad absurdum per aspera]

I wonder if they'd have taken a different decision had the "cash for
clunkers" plan not contained such a namby-pamby fuel-economy
requirement (and no requirement for US manufacture or content at
all). Or if gas prices hadn't (IMHO temporarily) fallen. Or if the
overall economy didn't stink (a lot of Americans aren't in the market
for a new car regardless of incentives). Or if Toyota's partner in
the venture weren't fighting for its very life.

NUMMI makes what I consider highly satisfactory (if maybe not super-
high-wow-factor) vehicles that are good on fuel economy in their
classes. In a parallel universe only slightly different from ours in
perhaps just one of the abovementioned aspects, that plant is going at
it hammer and tongs for the foreseeable future.

Keep in mind also that it might be mostly bidding and bluffing in a
very high stakes card game rather than a done deal at this point.

Cheers
--Joe, happy owner (maybe too happy -- no replacement plans) of a
NUMMI-made '90 Corolla

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Ad absurdum per aspera
I wonder if they'd have taken a different decision had the "cash for
clunkers" plan not contained such a namby-pamby fuel-economy
requirement (and no requirement for US manufacture or content at
all). Or if gas prices hadn't (IMHO temporarily) fallen. Or if the
overall economy didn't stink (a lot of Americans aren't in the market
for a new car regardless of incentives). Or if Toyota's partner in
the venture weren't fighting for its very life.
NUMMI makes what I consider highly satisfactory (if maybe not super-
high-wow-factor) vehicles that are good on fuel economy in their
classes. In a parallel universe only slightly different from ours in
perhaps just one of the abovementioned aspects, that plant is going at
it hammer and tongs for the foreseeable future.
Keep in mind also that it might be mostly bidding and bluffing in a
very high stakes card game rather than a done deal at this point.
Cheers
--Joe, happy owner (maybe too happy -- no replacement plans) of a
NUMMI-made '90 Corolla

There's a girl that has a 1987 'Corolla' FX that might want to sell it. I
was surprised to learn it was made by NUMMI.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

[Don Stauffer]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

[hls]

Post by Don Stauffer
I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

I guess I could afford them, if that were all there is to life, but I am not
willing to drive a falling-apart gas guzzler.

Somebody once said "I spent most of my money on whiskey and whores; I
wasted the rest of it". I dont feel that way about fine rides anymore.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by hls

Post by Don Stauffer
I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

I guess I could afford them, if that were all there is to life, but I am not
willing to drive a falling-apart gas guzzler.
Somebody once said "I spent most of my money on whiskey and whores; I
wasted the rest of it". I dont feel that way about fine rides anymore.

"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just
squandered"

He also said,

I might go to Alcoholics Anonymous, but I think it would be difficult for
me to remain anonymous.

People always say I shouldn't be burning the candle at both ends. Maybe
they haven't got a big enough candle.

If I'd been born ugly, you'd never have heard of Pele.

George Best, British footballer (er, soccer player, mate.)

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

Yeah, but nothing in the Toyota lineup. Why would anyone drive anything
else?

[Bob Jones]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

Yeah, but nothing in the Toyota lineup. Why would anyone drive anything
else?

Well, some people just want to get from point A to point B reliably. Toyota
fits that category. If you want some excitment with little money get a
Honda.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Bob Jones
Well, some people just want to get from point A to point B reliably. Toyota
fits that category.

And admirably well. Others fit the category, too, but suck at the
execution.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Bob Jones

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

Yeah, but nothing in the Toyota lineup. Why would anyone drive anything
else?

Well, some people just want to get from point A to point B reliably. Toyota
fits that category. If you want some excitment with little money get a
Honda.

And wait four months?

Sitting on the lot, $15,200...

Loading Image...

165 HP. That's 30 down from the Civic Si, but it was sitting on the lot
when I pulled in with the cash.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2008/04/scion-tc-01.jpg
165 HP. That's 30 down from the Civic Si, but it was sitting on the lot
when I pulled in with the cash.

You'd waste your money there instead of waiting a little bit for an Si?

Si is in plentiful demand. That you couldn't find a dealer that had
one, tells me you weren't trying very hard...

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク
http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2008/04/scion-tc-01.jpg
165 HP. That's 30 down from the Civic Si, but it was sitting on the lot
when I pulled in with the cash.

You'd waste your money there instead of waiting a little bit for an Si?
Si is in plentiful demand. That you couldn't find a dealer that had
one, tells me you weren't trying very hard...

Nope. I liked the tC when it came out. When they didn't have one, I went
to a Scion dealer and drove off with it right there.

I was talking to someone today who traded an Si for an '05 Celica. Said
the Si has no grunt off the line, but will wind out. The Scion will do
both.

I asked him if he wanted to trade the Celica for the tC, but no go...

[Toyota MDT in MO]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Bob Jones

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

Yeah, but nothing in the Toyota lineup. Why would anyone drive anything
else?

Well, some people just want to get from point A to point B reliably. Toyota
fits that category. If you want some excitment with little money get a
Honda.

And wait four months?
Sitting on the lot, $15,200...
http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2008/04/scion-tc-01.jpg
165 HP. That's 30 down from the Civic Si, but it was sitting on the lot
when I pulled in with the cash.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The Civic Si suffers from what I call "fake horsepower".

Toyota MDT in MO

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Toyota MDT in MO

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Bob Jones

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

Yeah, but nothing in the Toyota lineup. Why would anyone drive anything
else?

Well, some people just want to get from point A to point B reliably. Toyota
fits that category. If you want some excitment with little money get a
Honda.

And wait four months?
Sitting on the lot, $15,200...
http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2008/04/scion-tc-01.jpg
165 HP. That's 30 down from the Civic Si, but it was sitting on the lot
when I pulled in with the cash.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The Civic Si suffers from what I call "fake horsepower".
Toyota MDT in MO

But, it's 190 HP out of the box.

Actually, I think the tC suffers from fake HP, since the damn tranny is
geared so low. I'd like to change the final drive to get less Boy Racer
feel and better fuel economy...

[Toyota MDT in MO]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Toyota MDT in MO

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Bob Jones

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive them.

Yeah, but nothing in the Toyota lineup. Why would anyone drive anything
else?

Well, some people just want to get from point A to point B reliably. Toyota
fits that category. If you want some excitment with little money get a
Honda.

And wait four months?
Sitting on the lot, $15,200...
http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2008/04/scion-tc-01.jpg
165 HP. That's 30 down from the Civic Si, but it was sitting on the lot
when I pulled in with the cash.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The Civic Si suffers from what I call "fake horsepower".
Toyota MDT in MO

But, it's 190 HP out of the box.
Actually, I think the tC suffers from fake HP, since the damn tranny is
geared so low. I'd like to change the final drive to get less Boy Racer
feel and better fuel economy...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

190 "fake" HP. Honda has been touting B.S.y HP figures since the
inception of the first Civic VTEC engine. I can't believe how weak
they are (seat of the pants evaluation) for the advertised HP. It's a
good engine, but the advertising is a bit misleading. Nissan
participates in the fake HP war as well. The only Toyota engine I
felt might have slightly lofty HP specs was the 2ZZ-FE, but it just
kicks in at such a high RPM that it's hard to use it in daily driver
mode. Also I don't know what gas the owners are using, but it's
supposed to take premium due to the high compression when the intake
cam is in cruise/power position. Since I don't own one, I can only
drive customer Celicas to evaluate. It's much better than the base
engine, that's for sure.

Toyota MDT in MO

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Toyota MDT in MO

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Toyota MDT in MO

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Bob Jones

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

And it will be that way until someone decides to stop letting the
lawyers design the cars.

I see plenty of exciting cars out there. I just cannot afford to drive
them.

Yeah, but nothing in the Toyota lineup. Why would anyone drive anything
else?

Well, some people just want to get from point A to point B reliably. Toyota
fits that category. If you want some excitment with little money get a
Honda.

And wait four months?
Sitting on the lot, $15,200...
http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2008/04/scion-tc-01.jpg
165 HP. That's 30 down from the Civic Si, but it was sitting on the lot
when I pulled in with the cash.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The Civic Si suffers from what I call "fake horsepower".
Toyota MDT in MO

But, it's 190 HP out of the box.
Actually, I think the tC suffers from fake HP, since the damn tranny is
geared so low. I'd like to change the final drive to get less Boy Racer
feel and better fuel economy...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

190 "fake" HP. Honda has been touting B.S.y HP figures since the
inception of the first Civic VTEC engine. I can't believe how weak
they are (seat of the pants evaluation) for the advertised HP. It's a
good engine, but the advertising is a bit misleading. Nissan
participates in the fake HP war as well. The only Toyota engine I
felt might have slightly lofty HP specs was the 2ZZ-FE, but it just
kicks in at such a high RPM that it's hard to use it in daily driver
mode. Also I don't know what gas the owners are using, but it's
supposed to take premium due to the high compression when the intake
cam is in cruise/power position. Since I don't own one, I can only
drive customer Celicas to evaluate. It's much better than the base
engine, that's for sure.
Toyota MDT in MO

I met a guy with a Celica GT yesterday. I almost bought a GTS instead of
the Scion, but the price was too much. I know, it is a rare car...

I was looking at his seats to see if they will fit into the Scion. The
only thing I don't like about the tC is the seats. It feels like I'm
sitting at a dinner table. You know the others I have (had), an '80 SR-5
Coupe (Trueno, no Levin...), an '85 Corolla GTS, the 88 Supra, an '85
Celica GTS. They all sat you low to the floor, with the gas pedal as an
extension of your right foot, and a perfect heel and toe configuration of
the pedals. I can't dance, but you should see me work the pedals on an
'80's Toyota!

I'm trying to get that feel with the Scion, and the Celica seats, like I
had surmised, look like they will bolt right in. Oh, boy!

Sometimes I do wish I had bought the 02 GTS....

[Don Stauffer]

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.
Toyota's sales have fallen 38 percent in the first six months of the
year -- to 770,000 cars and trucks from nearly 1.25 million vehicles
in the first six months of 2008. U.S. industry auto sales fell 35
percent in the first half of the year.
http://detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210324/1148/Toyota+says+it+s+no+longer+profitable+in+North+America

Yep. I sold my Dodge Neon R/T and got a Prius. The Prius doesn't have
anywhere near the performance, handling or excitement of the R/T. But,
I see three dollar a gallon gas coming back, and there is a limit to
what I will pay for an exciting vehicle. I just have transportation again.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.
Toyota's sales have fallen 38 percent in the first six months of the
year -- to 770,000 cars and trucks from nearly 1.25 million vehicles
in the first six months of 2008. U.S. industry auto sales fell 35
percent in the first half of the year.
http://detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210324/1148/Toyota+says+it+s+no+longer+profitable+in+North+America

Yep. I sold my Dodge Neon R/T and got a Prius. The Prius doesn't have
anywhere near the performance, handling or excitement of the R/T. But,
I see three dollar a gallon gas coming back, and there is a limit to
what I will pay for an exciting vehicle. I just have transportation again.

Not me. I'd like to see a new incarnation of my Corolla GTS (my Scion tC
comes close) or an afforable replacement for the Supra.

You said there's a limit to what you'll pay? My Scion was $15,000 out the
door and gets ~32 MPG combined driving. And it's a HOOT besides.

BTW, your Prius will beat me off the line, since an electric motor devolps
all its torque from 0 RPM. Just get your eyes off the screen and stop
using Prius Foot...

[Toyota MDT in MO]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.
Toyota's sales have fallen 38 percent in the first six months of the
year -- to 770,000 cars and trucks from nearly 1.25 million vehicles
in the first six months of 2008. U.S. industry auto sales fell 35
percent in the first half of the year.
http://detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210324/1148/Toyota+says...

Yep. I sold my Dodge Neon R/T and got a Prius. The Prius doesn't have
anywhere near the performance, handling or excitement of the R/T. But,
I see three dollar a gallon gas coming back, and there is a limit to
what I will pay for an exciting vehicle. I just have transportation again.

Not me. I'd like to see a new incarnation of my Corolla GTS (my Scion tC
comes close) or an afforable replacement for the Supra.
You said there's a limit to what you'll pay? My Scion was $15,000 out the
door and gets ~32 MPG combined driving. And it's a HOOT besides.
BTW, your Prius will beat me off the line, since an electric motor devolps
all its torque from 0 RPM. Just get your eyes off the screen and stop
using Prius Foot...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Not with the torque limiting that the Prius HCU/PCM employs. It's
pretty much a dog, but will last damn near forever at that
calibration...

Toyota MDT in MO

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Toyota MDT in MO

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.
Toyota's sales have fallen 38 percent in the first six months of the
year -- to 770,000 cars and trucks from nearly 1.25 million vehicles
in the first six months of 2008. U.S. industry auto sales fell 35
percent in the first half of the year.
http://detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210324/1148/Toyota+says...

Yep. I sold my Dodge Neon R/T and got a Prius. The Prius doesn't have
anywhere near the performance, handling or excitement of the R/T. But,
I see three dollar a gallon gas coming back, and there is a limit to
what I will pay for an exciting vehicle. I just have transportation again.

Not me. I'd like to see a new incarnation of my Corolla GTS (my Scion tC
comes close) or an afforable replacement for the Supra.
You said there's a limit to what you'll pay? My Scion was $15,000 out the
door and gets ~32 MPG combined driving. And it's a HOOT besides.
BTW, your Prius will beat me off the line, since an electric motor devolps
all its torque from 0 RPM. Just get your eyes off the screen and stop
using Prius Foot...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Not with the torque limiting that the Prius HCU/PCM employs. It's
pretty much a dog, but will last damn near forever at that
calibration...
Toyota MDT in MO

Hmmm....I smell OVERRIDE!!!!!

[Toyota MDT in MO]

Post by Toyota MDT in MO

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.
Toyota's sales have fallen 38 percent in the first six months of the
year -- to 770,000 cars and trucks from nearly 1.25 million vehicles
in the first six months of 2008. U.S. industry auto sales fell 35
percent in the first half of the year.
http://detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210324/1148/Toyota+says...

Yep. I sold my Dodge Neon R/T and got a Prius. The Prius doesn't have
anywhere near the performance, handling or excitement of the R/T. But,
I see three dollar a gallon gas coming back, and there is a limit to
what I will pay for an exciting vehicle. I just have transportation again.

Not me. I'd like to see a new incarnation of my Corolla GTS (my Scion tC
comes close) or an afforable replacement for the Supra.
You said there's a limit to what you'll pay? My Scion was $15,000 out the
door and gets ~32 MPG combined driving. And it's a HOOT besides.
BTW, your Prius will beat me off the line, since an electric motor devolps
all its torque from 0 RPM. Just get your eyes off the screen and stop
using Prius Foot...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Not with the torque limiting that the Prius HCU/PCM employs. It's
pretty much a dog, but will last damn near forever at that
calibration...
Toyota MDT in MO

Hmmm....I smell OVERRIDE!!!!!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Some people well versed in programming and reverse engineering have
been doing that since the first Prius in Japan (before the NA debut of
the Prius in the US).

There is a proportional decrease in life expectancy when modding the
motor torque commands.

Have you test driven the AWD Highlander hybrid or it's Lexus sister?
That's pretty torquey from the factory since it has an electric motor
rear diff as well as a V6 hybrid driving the front wheels.

Toyota MDT in MO

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Toyota MDT in MO

Post by Toyota MDT in MO
Not with the torque limiting that the Prius HCU/PCM employs. It's
pretty much a dog, but will last damn near forever at that
calibration...
Toyota MDT in MO

Hmmm....I smell OVERRIDE!!!!!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Some people well versed in programming and reverse engineering have
been doing that since the first Prius in Japan (before the NA debut of
the Prius in the US).
There is a proportional decrease in life expectancy when modding the
motor torque commands.
Have you test driven the AWD Highlander hybrid or it's Lexus sister?
That's pretty torquey from the factory since it has an electric motor
rear diff as well as a V6 hybrid driving the front wheels.
Toyota MDT in MO

I saw a web page of an electrical engineer that put his Prius into
"European mode" (runs on the electric motor more than gas, also the mode
used in Japan). He wired a Libretto laptop into the OBD-II port and gets
right into the ECU, and has different programs to do different things. He
RE'd all the stuff himself. He can look at *all* parameters, not just the
ones shown by the dashboard GameBoy, and can change a lot of stuff on the
fly.

I didn't get to test the Hybrid Highlander. They were just coming on the
lot when I *AHEM* 'left' the dealership... ;)

[Don Stauffer]

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer
Yep. I sold my Dodge Neon R/T and got a Prius. The Prius doesn't have
anywhere near the performance, handling or excitement of the R/T. But,
I see three dollar a gallon gas coming back, and there is a limit to
what I will pay for an exciting vehicle. I just have transportation again.

Not me. I'd like to see a new incarnation of my Corolla GTS (my Scion tC
comes close) or an afforable replacement for the Supra.
You said there's a limit to what you'll pay? My Scion was $15,000 out the
door and gets ~32 MPG combined driving. And it's a HOOT besides.

I meant what I will pay at the pumps.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by Don Stauffer

Post by Hachiroku ハチロク

Post by Don Stauffer
Yep. I sold my Dodge Neon R/T and got a Prius. The Prius doesn't have
anywhere near the performance, handling or excitement of the R/T. But,
I see three dollar a gallon gas coming back, and there is a limit to
what I will pay for an exciting vehicle. I just have transportation again.

Not me. I'd like to see a new incarnation of my Corolla GTS (my Scion tC
comes close) or an afforable replacement for the Supra.
You said there's a limit to what you'll pay? My Scion was $15,000 out the
door and gets ~32 MPG combined driving. And it's a HOOT besides.

I meant what I will pay at the pumps.

Oh. Well, I don't mind. My Surpa gets 21 MPG. About 2/3 of my other cars.
It goes on the road in April, and goes in the garage in November. It
doesn't go out in the rain. Basically, it's limited to days when I can
remove the Sport Roof.

I like driving. I like driving somewhat responsive vehicles that are fun
to drive. Some people like boats. I'd just go down to the river and throw
money at it.

Same thing.

[C. E. White]

----- Original Message -----
From: "john" <***@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota,alt.autos.lexus,rec.autos.tech
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 9:44 PM
Subject: CEO: Toyota vehicles lacked passion, must be more exciting

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

Wow, somebody that gets it! Now if he incredibly admits the stupid decisions
made to supersize their product line-up (especially the Tundra disaster),
maybe Toyota will recover. Othewise they are going to be an easy target for
the Koreans and Chinese - aka, GM East. I can't understand how the supposed
geniuses at Toyota made all the stupid decisions of the last ten years. I
could understand why GM and Ford felt pressured to concentrate on trucks and
SUVs, I never understood why Toyota when totally me too and essentially
copied the GM strategy. They never operated under the same constraints as
GM, yet they acted like they did. I guess lack of originality is just part
of the Toyota culture. But maybe the new guy will fix that.

Ed

[hls]

Post by C. E. White
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota,alt.autos.lexus,rec.autos.tech
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 9:44 PM
Subject: CEO: Toyota vehicles lacked passion, must be more exciting

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

Wow, somebody that gets it! Now if he incredibly admits the stupid decisions
made to supersize their product line-up (especially the Tundra disaster),
maybe Toyota will recover. Othewise they are going to be an easy target for
the Koreans and Chinese - aka, GM East. I can't understand how the supposed
geniuses at Toyota made all the stupid decisions of the last ten years. I
could understand why GM and Ford felt pressured to concentrate on trucks and
SUVs, I never understood why Toyota when totally me too and essentially
copied the GM strategy. They never operated under the same constraints as
GM, yet they acted like they did. I guess lack of originality is just part
of the Toyota culture. But maybe the new guy will fix that.
Ed

I guess they do lack passion. Some of the absolutely poorest decisions
I ever made in my life were "passionate" ones.

[C. E. White]

Post by hls

Post by C. E. White
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota,alt.autos.lexus,rec.autos.tech
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 9:44 PM
Subject: CEO: Toyota vehicles lacked passion, must be more exciting

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked
"passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more
nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.

Wow, somebody that gets it! Now if he incredibly admits the stupid decisions
made to supersize their product line-up (especially the Tundra disaster),
maybe Toyota will recover. Othewise they are going to be an easy target for
the Koreans and Chinese - aka, GM East. I can't understand how the supposed
geniuses at Toyota made all the stupid decisions of the last ten years. I
could understand why GM and Ford felt pressured to concentrate on trucks and
SUVs, I never understood why Toyota when totally me too and
essentially
copied the GM strategy. They never operated under the same
constraints as
GM, yet they acted like they did. I guess lack of originality is just part
of the Toyota culture. But maybe the new guy will fix that.
Ed

I guess they do lack passion. Some of the absolutely poorest
decisions
I ever made in my life were "passionate" ones.

I drink a beer to that.

Ed

[Steve]

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"

Can I *knew* I heard a collective "duh" out there.... :-p

[David Z]

Yeah, every year for the last 20 years or so, it's the same thing. Number
one in customer satisfaction and reliability. How boring!
--
--

Post by john
"Inaba acknowledged that Toyota vehicles had often lacked "passion"
and that the company's vehicles must be "more exciting, more nimble."
"Toyota is a good car but not exciting. Those are the comments we
usually (or) always get," Inaba said.
Toyota's sales have fallen 38 percent in the first six months of the
year -- to 770,000 cars and trucks from nearly 1.25 million vehicles
in the first six months of 2008. U.S. industry auto sales fell 35
percent in the first half of the year.
http://detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210324/1148/Toyota+says+it+s+no+longer+profitable+in+North+America

[C. E. White]

Post by David Z
Yeah, every year for the last 20 years or so, it's the same thing.
Number one in customer satisfaction and reliability. How boring!

Not true. In fact, I don't think Toyota has ever been number one in
Customer Satisfaction or Reliability (Lexus has some years, but
Toyota, never). I think if you check the facts, you'll see Buick has
beaten Toyota on both scores more than once. I don't know about you,
but I wouldn't feel all that great running around saying, my car is
almost as good as a Buick. But then I think most of the beauty polls
people like to quote are at best bunk. CR's is the worst, and JD Power
only a little better.

Ed

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by C. E. White
In fact, I don't think Toyota has ever been number one in
Customer Satisfaction or Reliability (Lexus has some years, but
Toyota, never). I think if you check the facts, you'll see Buick has
beaten Toyota on both scores more than once.

What those scores DON'T tell you is the truth behind the facts.

Buick. Let's analyze that, shall we? The average age of a Buick buyer
is what? How many miles a year does he drive? What kind of roads does
he drive on--freeway or surface streets? How many features of the car
does he use--does he even turn the radio on?

Buick can make the numbers simply because of their demographic, not
because of their cars. Normalize the demographic--put the average Camry
buyer into a Buick, for example--and see what kind of numbers Buick
comes out with.

[hls]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by C. E. White
In fact, I don't think Toyota has ever been number one in
Customer Satisfaction or Reliability (Lexus has some years, but
Toyota, never). I think if you check the facts, you'll see Buick has
beaten Toyota on both scores more than once.

What those scores DON'T tell you is the truth behind the facts.

I'll give Buick kudos as far as having improved the breed, but there are
several factors as you say. Some of these satisfaction indices are based
upon almost new cars. Let them age 3-4 years and see what they look like.

My wife and I bought Buicks for some years. Sometimes she talks about
her last one (98 LeSabre) being a good car...BUT, it burned up an
alternator,
threw a belt when the goofy tensioner seized, ate a HVAC computer,
had the plastic plenum decompose and fill the engine with water, had a
transmission problem that never advanced to failure but was scary at times,
had the radio tape deck fail (known weakness in this case) and so on.

Was it really good? Maybe not as good as she remembers it.

I had an 89 Regal that was a pleasure to drive (when it ran). It lost the
Metric tranny at less than 100K miles, ate water pumps like crazy,
polished off the water pumps with a dessert of ECS100 alternators
(MANY of them),had regular problems with the rear disc brakes
(a defective design), had the cheapo pot metal door handles break,
developed water leaks around the rear window, etc etc... It had so
many nice characteristics, but was -despite my fond memory of it -
a piece of crap.

[Vic Smith]

Post by hls
I had an 89 Regal that was a pleasure to drive (when it ran). It lost the
Metric tranny at less than 100K miles, ate water pumps like crazy,
polished off the water pumps with a dessert of ECS100 alternators
(MANY of them),had regular problems with the rear disc brakes
(a defective design), had the cheapo pot metal door handles break,
developed water leaks around the rear window, etc etc... It had so
many nice characteristics, but was -despite my fond memory of it -
a piece of crap.

Why would the same water pump on my '88 Celebrity go 120k miles before
it started weeping, and the replacement go to 190k miles and still be
fine when the car was junked, while your Buick ate them?
And it's the same pump on my '97 Lumina which went to about 110k
when I put in a new one as a precaution because my girls took the car
on a long trip to Florida.
Ever see a movie called "The Cooler?"
I think you're a cooler around water pumps. Water pump bad luck goes
where you go.

--Vic

[hls]

Post by Vic Smith

Post by hls
I had an 89 Regal that was a pleasure to drive (when it ran). It lost the
Metric tranny at less than 100K miles, ate water pumps like crazy,
polished off the water pumps with a dessert of ECS100 alternators
(MANY of them),had regular problems with the rear disc brakes
(a defective design), had the cheapo pot metal door handles break,
developed water leaks around the rear window, etc etc... It had so
many nice characteristics, but was -despite my fond memory of it -
a piece of crap.

Why would the same water pump on my '88 Celebrity go 120k miles before
it started weeping, and the replacement go to 190k miles and still be
fine when the car was junked, while your Buick ate them?
And it's the same pump on my '97 Lumina which went to about 110k
when I put in a new one as a precaution because my girls took the car
on a long trip to Florida.
Ever see a movie called "The Cooler?"
I think you're a cooler around water pumps. Water pump bad luck goes
where you go.
--Vic

This was the only car I ever had that behaved that way. It was a 2.8 litre
V6 by the way.

[David Z]

Post by C. E. White

Yeah, every year for the last 20 years or so, it's the same thing. Number
one in customer satisfaction and reliability. How boring!

Not true. In fact, I don't think Toyota has ever been number one in
Customer Satisfaction or Reliability (Lexus has some years,

Not SOME years. About 90% of years in the last 2 decades. In the other 10%,
Lexus was either tied for 1st or 2nd.

You keep saying that Lexus cars are just a rebadged Toyota. Now when
presented with data that doesn't support your point of view, you want to
separate the 2. Your hypocrisy is duly noted.

Post by C. E. White
but Toyota, never). I think if you check the facts, you'll see Buick has
beaten Toyota on both scores more than once. I don't know about you, but I
wouldn't feel all that great running around saying, my car is almost as
good as a Buick. But then I think most of the beauty polls people like to
quote are at best bunk. CR's is the worst, and JD Power only a little
better.

Customer satisfaction is not a beauty contest. Customer satisfaction is a
survey of how happy people are with their purchase of their hard earned
dollar. Reliability is not a beauty contest, either. These are hard facts,
not subjective judgments. Again, your hypocrisy is showing.

Car magazine ratings are beauty contests. Made by middle aged men living
out their middle-aged crisis. Are you in that category?

[Nate Nagel]

Post by David Z

Post by C. E. White

Yeah, every year for the last 20 years or so, it's the same thing. Number
one in customer satisfaction and reliability. How boring!

Not true. In fact, I don't think Toyota has ever been number one in
Customer Satisfaction or Reliability (Lexus has some years,

Not SOME years. About 90% of years in the last 2 decades. In the other 10%,
Lexus was either tied for 1st or 2nd.
You keep saying that Lexus cars are just a rebadged Toyota. Now when
presented with data that doesn't support your point of view, you want to
separate the 2. Your hypocrisy is duly noted.

Post by C. E. White
but Toyota, never). I think if you check the facts, you'll see Buick has
beaten Toyota on both scores more than once. I don't know about you, but I
wouldn't feel all that great running around saying, my car is almost as
good as a Buick. But then I think most of the beauty polls people like to
quote are at best bunk. CR's is the worst, and JD Power only a little
better.

Customer satisfaction is not a beauty contest. Customer satisfaction is a
survey of how happy people are with their purchase of their hard earned
dollar. Reliability is not a beauty contest, either. These are hard facts,
not subjective judgments. Again, your hypocrisy is showing.
Car magazine ratings are beauty contests. Made by middle aged men living
out their middle-aged crisis. Are you in that category?

Meh, there's some truth to what you say BUT... if Lexus service is
anything like Infiniti service, the dealership experience may influence
customer satisfaction in a big way. Had a friend years ago who had a
used G20 (basically an upscale Sentra.) Missed a shift on the freeway
and got a free head rebuild from the dealer even after admitting to
blowing said shift. He eventually traded it for a Z, and complained
that they didn't treat him as well afterwards.

The reverse can be true as well. IMHO VW made some of the finest small
FWD boxen on the road in the 80's but their dealer service was so
atrocious that they always were at the bottom of the barrel in customer
satisfaction.

Magazine road tests do tell you a lot about a car, but not always
everything you want to know. Some Mitsubishis road test well, for
example, but I wouldn't own one if it were free. You can't predict
dropped valve guides at 50K miles based on a couple hundred mile road
test of a new car, but you CAN assess acceleration, handling, and comfort...

Now what I want in a car is light weight, great handling, rear wheel
drive, gobs of power, a shifter that feels like the bolt of an old,
well-oiled ought-six, controls that as they say "fall readily to hand"
and comfortable, supportive seats. I also want dead nuts reliability
and an econobox price. Unfortunately I don't think that this car exists :(

nate

[David Z]

Post by Nate Nagel

Post by David Z

Post by C. E. White

Post by David Z
Yeah, every year for the last 20 years or so, it's the same thing.
Number one in customer satisfaction and reliability. How boring!

Not true. In fact, I don't think Toyota has ever been number one in
Customer Satisfaction or Reliability (Lexus has some years,

Not SOME years. About 90% of years in the last 2 decades. In the other
10%, Lexus was either tied for 1st or 2nd.
You keep saying that Lexus cars are just a rebadged Toyota. Now when
presented with data that doesn't support your point of view, you want to
separate the 2. Your hypocrisy is duly noted.

Post by C. E. White
but Toyota, never). I think if you check the facts, you'll see Buick has
beaten Toyota on both scores more than once. I don't know about you, but
I wouldn't feel all that great running around saying, my car is almost
as good as a Buick. But then I think most of the beauty polls people
like to quote are at best bunk. CR's is the worst, and JD Power only a
little better.

Customer satisfaction is not a beauty contest. Customer satisfaction is
a survey of how happy people are with their purchase of their hard earned
dollar. Reliability is not a beauty contest, either. These are hard
facts, not subjective judgments. Again, your hypocrisy is showing.
Car magazine ratings are beauty contests. Made by middle aged men living
out their middle-aged crisis. Are you in that category?

Meh, there's some truth to what you say BUT... if Lexus service is
anything like Infiniti service, the dealership experience may influence
customer satisfaction in a big way. Had a friend years ago who had a used
G20 (basically an upscale Sentra.) Missed a shift on the freeway and got
a free head rebuild from the dealer even after admitting to blowing said
shift. He eventually traded it for a Z, and complained that they didn't
treat him as well afterwards.
The reverse can be true as well. IMHO VW made some of the finest small
FWD boxen on the road in the 80's but their dealer service was so
atrocious that they always were at the bottom of the barrel in customer
satisfaction.

By that logic, why isn't doesn't Infinity have the same customer
satisfaction ranking as Lexus? Obviously, there are other factors at play
here.

Dealer experience is one of many factors. IMO, dealer experience is less
important than the following:

- Reliability - Don't underestimate the anger and frustration people
experience wasting time in a repair shop after spending many thousands of
their hard earned dollars for a product. This includes "free" warrantee
service.

- Design/Ergonomics - The product must work as intended, meet or exceed the
customer's expectations and occasionally make them smile and in awe. It's
important to note that, while you may have ambitions to be a race car
driver, the average consumers defines the "driving experience" very
differently than you do.

Post by Nate Nagel
Magazine road tests do tell you a lot about a car, but not always
everything you want to know. Some Mitsubishis road test well, for
example, but I wouldn't own one if it were free. You can't predict
dropped valve guides at 50K miles based on a couple hundred mile road test
of a new car, but you CAN assess acceleration, handling, and comfort...

Car magazine road tests are good for data (e.g., handling, braking, noise
level, etc.), but their opinions and rankings are far less useful because
they are based on the priorities of the authors, which tend to be way more
"hot rodish" than the average consumer.

Post by Nate Nagel
Now what I want in a car is light weight, great handling, rear wheel
drive, gobs of power, a shifter that feels like the bolt of an old,
well-oiled ought-six, controls that as they say "fall readily to hand" and
comfortable, supportive seats. I also want dead nuts reliability and an
econobox price. Unfortunately I don't think that this car exists :(

Your priorities are different than mine. Nonetheless, my perfect car
doesn't exist, either. So we have to choose amongst the options that the
market offers.

[Elder]

Post by Nate Nagel
Now what I want in a car is light weight, great handling, rear wheel
drive, gobs of power, a shifter that feels like the bolt of an old,
well-oiled ought-six, controls that as they say "fall readily to hand"
and comfortable, supportive seats. I also want dead nuts reliability
and an econobox price. Unfortunately I don't think that this car exists :(

Mazda MX5 3rd Generation. Also called the Eunos or Miata in earlier
generations in different markets. Don't know if they still are.

Purebred small engined two seater open top sports car.

[Nate Nagel]

Post by Elder

Post by Nate Nagel
Now what I want in a car is light weight, great handling, rear wheel
drive, gobs of power, a shifter that feels like the bolt of an old,
well-oiled ought-six, controls that as they say "fall readily to hand"
and comfortable, supportive seats. I also want dead nuts reliability
and an econobox price. Unfortunately I don't think that this car exists :(

Mazda MX5 3rd Generation. Also called the Eunos or Miata in earlier
generations in different markets. Don't know if they still are.
Purebred small engined two seater open top sports car.

I'd agree except for the "gobs of power" thing. My mom has a first-gen
and really likes it, but it's far from overpowered.

funny thing is, I've been arguing with SWMBO about Miatas for years... I
keep telling her that they're the closest thing on the market to what
she wants in a car (fun to drive, reliable, no special instructions,
reasonably priced) and yet she resists because "everyone has one" (well,
maybe that's because it's a good product) and "it's a chick car" (maybe
there's something I ought to know...?)

Now if Mazda made a Miata with the motor from the old RX-7 Turbo (or
just hadn't discontinued the really nice looking RX-7 in favor of the
hideous RX-8) that'd really perk my ears up.

nate

[Elder]

Post by Nate Nagel
Now if Mazda made a Miata with the motor from the old RX-7 Turbo (or
just hadn't discontinued the really nice looking RX-7 in favor of the
hideous RX-8) that'd really perk my ears up.

166horses in a 2 seater that grips so well isn't that bad.
Combined with the adjustable suspension and already mentioned grip they
aren't about power they are about a sweet drive.

The 3rd gens are slightly bigger but every effort has been made to keep
the weight down so it weighs very little more than the 1st gen.

See if you can get a drive in a nice 3rd gen with the 5 or 6 speed
manual and find somewhere nice and twisty to throw it through.

I like big power, had my share of Saab and Toyota turbos, but there is
something very sweet about having enough power to be able to make use of
a lot of it, and a chassis that just works.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by David Z
Reliability is not a beauty contest, either. These are hard facts,
not subjective judgments.

Reliability as reported by the owner is 100% subjective.

[David Z]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by David Z
Reliability is not a beauty contest, either. These are hard facts,
not subjective judgments.

Reliability as reported by the owner is 100% subjective.

It's 100% reliable, Elmo, that you'll make an ass of yourself every time you
post a message.

[matrixxx09]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Reliability as reported by the owner is 100% subjective.

Obviously that's silly, but there is certainly SOME subjectivity.

But when it comes to comparing across makes and models, we need not
worry about that, unless there is a consistent tendency in
reporting...

For example, would you expect Toyota customers to over-report
reliability compared with, say, Ford owners?

If reliability is a '9' for Toyota and a '7' for Ford (just making up
numbers of course), could you explain away the difference due to
'subjectivity'? If so, what would your argument be that Toyota owners
are over-reporting the reliability of their cars?

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by matrixxx09

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Reliability as reported by the owner is 100% subjective.

Obviously that's silly, but there is certainly SOME subjectivity.
But when it comes to comparing across makes and models, we need not
worry about that, unless there is a consistent tendency in
reporting...
For example, would you expect Toyota customers to over-report
reliability compared with, say, Ford owners?

I would expect Buick owners to over-report reliability compared to
anyone.

That's because Buick owners buy their cars then store them in the garage.

Until and unless the "ownership reliability survey" is normalized for
miles driven, age group, and use of the vehicle (kids, hauling,
traveling salesman, taxi/courier, etc.), then it's just so much garbage.

And that's proven by Buick's consistent top ranking. There is no way
the Buick, which is identical to the Chevy and is made by the same
company and built in the same factories by the same union workers that
are managed by the same GM management, is overall any better or more
reliable than the identical Chevy model.

[Clive]

Post by C. E. White
Not true. In fact, I don't think Toyota has ever been number one in
Customer Satisfaction or Reliability (Lexus has some years, but
Toyota, never). I think if you check the facts, you'll see Buick has
beaten Toyota on both scores more than once. I don't know about you,
but I wouldn't feel all that great running around saying, my car is
almost as good as a Buick. But then I think most of the beauty polls
people like to quote are at best bunk. CR's is the worst, and JD Power
only a little better.

In this months Which survey the order from most to least reliable is,
Very Good,

Honda.
Daihatsu.
Toyota.
Mazda.
Suzuki.
Good,
Mitsubishi.
Hyundai.
Subaru.
Porsche.

Average,

Mini.
Nissan.
Mercedes-Benz.
Skoda.
Ford.
BMW.
Chevrolet.
Kia.
Volvo.
Jaguar.
Seat.
Daewoo.
Proton.

Poor,

Volkswagen.
Vauxhall.
Smart.
Citroen.
Audi.
Jeep.

Very Poor,

Peugeot.
Saab.
Fiat.
MG.
Alfa Romeo.
Chrysler.
Rover.
Renault.
Land Rover.

[Clive]

Post by Clive

Post by C. E. White
Not true. In fact, I don't think Toyota has ever been number one in
Customer Satisfaction or Reliability (Lexus has some years, but
Toyota, never). I think if you check the facts, you'll see Buick has
beaten Toyota on both scores more than once. I don't know about you,
but I wouldn't feel all that great running around saying, my car is
almost as good as a Buick. But then I think most of the beauty polls
people like to quote are at best bunk. CR's is the worst, and JD Power
only a little better.

In this months Which survey the order from most to least reliable is,
Very Good,
Honda.
Daihatsu.
Toyota.
Mazda.
Suzuki.
Good,
Mitsubishi.
Hyundai.
Subaru.
Porsche.
Average,
Mini.
Nissan.
Mercedes-Benz.
Skoda.
Ford.
BMW.
Chevrolet.
Kia.
Volvo.
Jaguar.
Seat.
Daewoo.
Proton.
Poor,
Volkswagen.
Vauxhall.
Smart.
Citroen.
Audi.
Jeep.
Very Poor,
Peugeot.
Saab.
Fiat.
MG.
Alfa Romeo.
Chrysler.
Rover.
Renault.
Land Rover.

[hls]

Post by Clive
Very Poor,
Peugeot.
Saab.
Fiat.
MG.
Alfa Romeo.
Chrysler.
Rover.
Renault.
Land Rover.
--
Clive

GM must have really done a number on SAAB. The one I had back in the
early 80's was a great car.

[Elder]

Post by hls
GM must have really done a number on SAAB. The one I had back in the
early 80's was a great car.

They really have.
They don't feel as good, and don't last as well.

Hopefully if and when it is finalised and publicised, the Koenigsegg
buyout will give back the sensible eccentricities and longevity.

[Steve]

Clive wrote:

You know, even if NOTHING else were stupid about that list, the fact
that Mitsubishi is in the "very good" category would render the whole
thing suspect.

Post by Clive
In this months Which survey the order from most to least reliable is,
Very Good,
Honda.
Daihatsu.
Toyota.
Mazda.
Suzuki.
Good,
Mitsubishi.
Hyundai.
Subaru.
Porsche.
Average,
Mini.
Nissan.
Mercedes-Benz.
Skoda.
Ford.
BMW.
Chevrolet.
Kia.
Volvo.
Jaguar.
Seat.
Daewoo.
Proton.
Poor,
Volkswagen.
Vauxhall.
Smart.
Citroen.
Audi.
Jeep.
Very Poor,
Peugeot.
Saab.
Fiat.
MG.
Alfa Romeo.
Chrysler.
Rover.
Renault.
Land Rover.

[matrixxxx09]

You know,  even if NOTHING else were stupid about that list, the fact
that Mitsubishi is in the "very good" category would render the whole
thing suspect.

I think Mistu was in the "good" category. It's in approximately the
same spot that Consumer Reports put it.

[N8N]

You know,  even if NOTHING else were stupid about that list, the fact
that Mitsubishi is in the "very good" category would render the whole
thing suspect.

I think Mistu was in the "good" category.  It's in approximately the
same spot that Consumer Reports put it.

"Good" compared to what? A flaming bag of dog crap?

The fact that VW was rated "poor" while mitsu was rated "good" says to
me that I can safely forget that entire list 5 seconds from now and my
life will not be one bit poorer for it. (of course, VW dealers *are*
often combusting anuses, but their products are darn good.)

nate

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by N8N
(of course, VW dealers *are*
often combusting anuses, but their products are darn good.)

Except that they're not. Talk about flaming bags of dogshit.

VW products are no better than, and may be worse than, any GM product
ever sold in the US.

For example, talk to any VW owner caught up in the coil pack issue.

[N8N]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by N8N
(of course, VW dealers *are*
often combusting anuses, but their products are darn good.)

Except that they're not.  Talk about flaming bags of dogshit.
VW products are no better than, and may be worse than, any GM product
ever sold in the US.
For example, talk to any VW owner caught up in the coil pack issue.

I had that "issue." I bought my car from a (rare) good dealer, so it
was hassle-free. I brought it in for a regularly scheduled (free) oil
change and mentioned that it was idling a little rough. I got the car
back and was told that they'd replaced the coil packs, no charge.

Now, I know that others had experiences that were not so happy. the
problem was, similar to the window regulator issue, that a component
supplier had provided not-to-spec parts. The *REAL* problem was that
VW only had one supplier for the coil packs, so when they found out
that nearly all the parts they were getting were shit, they didn't
have anywhere to buy replacements. I got lucky in that the issue with
my car didn't surface until after they'd already got another supplier
ramped up and most of the supply problems were sorted.

But when I say that VW products are generally good, I mean that the
basic design and mechanicals are so hell for stout that they make an
old MoPar look positively weak and wimpy. Once you get one sorted
out, you can drive a watercooled VW essentially indefinitely, with
only regular maintenance.

nate

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by N8N

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
For example, talk to any VW owner caught up in the coil pack issue.

I had that "issue." I bought my car from a (rare) good dealer, so it
was hassle-free. I brought it in for a regularly scheduled (free) oil
change and mentioned that it was idling a little rough. I got the car
back and was told that they'd replaced the coil packs, no charge.

Compare that to the many thousands of owners who were stranded because
VW didn't have enough supply on hand to take care of the issue.

[Mike]

That reminds one of Toyotas unsettled sludge problem LOL

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by N8N

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
For example, talk to any VW owner caught up in the coil pack issue.

I had that "issue." I bought my car from a (rare) good dealer, so it
was hassle-free. I brought it in for a regularly scheduled (free) oil
change and mentioned that it was idling a little rough. I got the car
back and was told that they'd replaced the coil packs, no charge.

Compare that to the many thousands of owners who were stranded because
VW didn't have enough supply on hand to take care of the issue.

[Steve]

Or all the Honda drivers that got stranded by their very similar ignitor
issue (not enough parts on hand, backorders, etc.) in the mid 90s. I had
to rescue one of those drivers once. She didn't seem amused that an (at
the time) unpainted '69 Dodge with rust holes and a swiss cheese
convertible top was purring like a kitten (ok, tiger cub) and her
almpst-new honda was a useless pile beside a rural backroad.

Every manufacturer has one of 'those' stories to tell.

Post by Mike
That reminds one of Toyotas unsettled sludge problem LOL

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by N8N

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
For example, talk to any VW owner caught up in the coil pack issue.

I had that "issue." I bought my car from a (rare) good dealer, so it
was hassle-free. I brought it in for a regularly scheduled (free) oil
change and mentioned that it was idling a little rough. I got the car
back and was told that they'd replaced the coil packs, no charge.

Compare that to the many thousands of owners who were stranded because
VW didn't have enough supply on hand to take care of the issue.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by N8N
Once you get one sorted
out, you can drive a watercooled VW essentially indefinitely, with
only regular maintenance.

...and regular wheel bearing replacement, and regular electrical
problems, and...

[N8N]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by N8N
Once you get one sorted
out, you can drive a watercooled VW essentially indefinitely, with
only regular maintenance.

...and regular wheel bearing replacement, and regular electrical
problems, and...

the only wheel bearings I've had issues with were the rears; those are
a little undersized in the later cars, but being completely
conventional it's trivial to repack them with synthetic grease. Now a
misadjusted parking brake will cause wheel bearing failure. Only had
problems on two cars though - one was my mom's car which had a bad
wheel bearing when she bought it, she drove it for another... oh... 15
years without any more issues. The other was my '84 GTI which ate a
LR wheel bearing because the e-brake cable had rusted up. The fronts
I've never had issues with - only replaced one, ever, and that was on
a "barn car." No electrical problems, either. Drove nothing but well-
used 80s VWs for a good 10 year period, until they started to become
hard to find both used and in junkyards.

I keep hearing of people saying that VWs are so finicky and hard to
keep going, but IME they're the spiritual successor to something like
a slant-six Dart.

nate

[Steve]

Post by matrixxxx09

Post by Steve
You know, even if NOTHING else were stupid about that list, the fact
that Mitsubishi is in the "very good" category would render the whole
thing suspect.

I think Mistu was in the "good" category. It's in approximately the
same spot that Consumer Reports put it.

But in reality, Mitsu is about as low on the list as you can get. I
mean, even Yugo figured out how to keep the majority of the oil out of
the combustion chambers.

[Anumber1]

Post by Steve

Post by matrixxxx09

Post by Steve
You know, even if NOTHING else were stupid about that list, the fact
that Mitsubishi is in the "very good" category would render the whole
thing suspect.

I think Mistu was in the "good" category. It's in approximately the
same spot that Consumer Reports put it.

But in reality, Mitsu is about as low on the list as you can get. I
mean, even Yugo figured out how to keep the majority of the oil out of
the combustion chambers.

I was an industrial mechanic for a while in the late '80s (forklifts and
such). Mitsu was shit then. *New* liftrucks (under 1000 hrs) would drop
valveguides or leak so much oil as to render them useless in a week of
service.

I worked for a Datsun dealer. We replaced hundreds of Mitsus.

Try leaking oil in a carpet warehouse! They go nuts! "Fix this F**king
thing before it ruins the inventory!"

Sorry... No Fix... Buy a better forklift...

True story.
Al

[Nate Nagel]

Post by Anumber1

Post by Steve

Post by matrixxxx09

Post by Steve
You know, even if NOTHING else were stupid about that list, the fact
that Mitsubishi is in the "very good" category would render the whole
thing suspect.

I think Mistu was in the "good" category. It's in approximately the
same spot that Consumer Reports put it.

But in reality, Mitsu is about as low on the list as you can get. I
mean, even Yugo figured out how to keep the majority of the oil out of
the combustion chambers.

I was an industrial mechanic for a while in the late '80s (forklifts and
such). Mitsu was shit then. *New* liftrucks (under 1000 hrs) would drop
valveguides or leak so much oil as to render them useless in a week of
service.

Heh. Did they use the same heads as the V-6 POS engines they put in
Chrysler minivans?

I mean really. How hard is it to spec a proper press fit...?

nate

[Anumber1]

Post by Nate Nagel

Post by Anumber1

Post by Steve

Post by matrixxxx09

Post by Steve
You know, even if NOTHING else were stupid about that list, the fact
that Mitsubishi is in the "very good" category would render the whole
thing suspect.

I think Mistu was in the "good" category. It's in approximately the
same spot that Consumer Reports put it.

But in reality, Mitsu is about as low on the list as you can get. I
mean, even Yugo figured out how to keep the majority of the oil out
of the combustion chambers.

I was an industrial mechanic for a while in the late '80s (forklifts
and such). Mitsu was shit then. *New* liftrucks (under 1000 hrs) would
drop valveguides or leak so much oil as to render them useless in a
week of service.

Heh. Did they use the same heads as the V-6 POS engines they put in
Chrysler minivans?
I mean really. How hard is it to spec a proper press fit...?
nate

Yep. Same industrial process creating totally shitty parts that the
company (Mitsui) could care less about servicing/replacing/honoring
warranty service about.

Sold a lot of Datsuns/Nissans due to it.

Strange thing is that a 1st gen, turbo, AWD Eclipse is a f**king blast
to drive and held up well.
Al

[Nate Nagel]

Post by Anumber1

Post by Nate Nagel

Post by Anumber1

Post by Steve

Post by matrixxxx09

Post by Steve
You know, even if NOTHING else were stupid about that list, the fact
that Mitsubishi is in the "very good" category would render the whole
thing suspect.

I think Mistu was in the "good" category. It's in approximately the
same spot that Consumer Reports put it.

But in reality, Mitsu is about as low on the list as you can get. I
mean, even Yugo figured out how to keep the majority of the oil out
of the combustion chambers.

I was an industrial mechanic for a while in the late '80s (forklifts
and such). Mitsu was shit then. *New* liftrucks (under 1000 hrs)
would drop valveguides or leak so much oil as to render them useless
in a week of service.

Heh. Did they use the same heads as the V-6 POS engines they put in
Chrysler minivans?
I mean really. How hard is it to spec a proper press fit...?
nate

Yep. Same industrial process creating totally shitty parts that the
company (Mitsui) could care less about servicing/replacing/honoring
warranty service about.
Sold a lot of Datsuns/Nissans due to it.
Strange thing is that a 1st gen, turbo, AWD Eclipse is a f**king blast
to drive and held up well.
Al

Agreed. A friend had a non-turbo FWD Laser and it seemed to be decent
enough. I expected it to self destruct at any second just because I
knew who'd made it but she had it for years. I guess their
anti-engineers must have had an off day when designing that series of cars?

Girlie keeps looking at WRXes and Evos... I told her if she bought an
Evo that I would refuse to so much as put new wiper blades on it,
because I didn't want to be held responsible for anything bad that could
(would) happen to it.

nate

[Steve]

Post by David Z
Yeah, every year for the last 20 years or so, it's the same thing. Number
one in customer satisfaction and reliability. How boring!

Baaaah. Baaaaah. Baaaaaaaaah.