Runaway 2009 Lexus ES fiery crash kills family of 4

[john]

So watch those mats!

"Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars
for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas
pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four
family members in San Diego County.

Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to
about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of
their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that
the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the
Torrance-based company.

Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper
mats.

"If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of
their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons
said.

California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others
were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San
Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport
utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and
burst into flames.

The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries.

In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother-
in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38.

Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the
vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck.

The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and
pray, followed by a woman's scream.

The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer
while their own vehicle was being serviced.

Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have
determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage
was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the
vehicle.

That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal.

"We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or
not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different
Lexus."

Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather
mats are sold as accessories.

The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine
from the automatic transmission, Lyons said.

The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by
holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have
locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power-
assist to the brakes, Lyons said.

Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched
floor mats.

In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its
Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip
and trap the accelerator.

However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from
the market during the recall, Lyons said. "

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/auto01/Mismatched+floor+mat+may+have+caused+deadly+SoCal+crash++Toyota+orders+inspections

[Mike]

I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.

I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?

In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. If you
doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake with
you left foot and take note of what happens. ;)

Post by john
So watch those mats!
"Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars
for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas
pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four
family members in San Diego County.
Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to
about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of
their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that
the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the
Torrance-based company.
Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper
mats.
"If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of
their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons
said.
California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others
were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San
Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport
utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and
burst into flames.
The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries.
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother-
in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38.
Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the
vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck.
The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and
pray, followed by a woman's scream.
The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer
while their own vehicle was being serviced.
Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have
determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage
was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the
vehicle.
That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal.
"We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or
not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different
Lexus."
Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather
mats are sold as accessories.
The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine
from the automatic transmission, Lyons said.
The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by
holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have
locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power-
assist to the brakes, Lyons said.
Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched
floor mats.
In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its
Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip
and trap the accelerator.
However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from
the market during the recall, Lyons said. "
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/auto01/Mismatched+floor+mat+may+have+caused+deadly+SoCal+crash++Toyota+orders+inspections

[a]

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.

I think you have an errant view on what brake horsepower is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower

Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus
ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh.

a

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by a

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower
Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus
ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh.
a

I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and
Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system.

But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the car
down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make it
stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a cliff.
If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is
cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause the
passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not restrained
by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even
require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand
how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. Grandma
might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I think
CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high
speed stopping.

There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story.

[a]

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by a

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower
Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus
ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh.
a

I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and
Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system.
But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the car
down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make it
stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a cliff.
If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is
cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause the
passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not restrained
by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even
require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand
how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. Grandma
might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I think
CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high
speed stopping.
There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story.

I know, I just thought I'd point out the factual errors. I agree on the
fishy smell. Turn the ignition back to "Acc" or whatever it's called on
that car? Brake hard - pull up the emerg./parking brake?

a

[a]

Post by a

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by a

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower
Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus
ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh.
a

I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and
Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system.
But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the car
down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make it
stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a cliff.
If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is
cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause the
passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not restrained
by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even
require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand
how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. Grandma
might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I think
CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high
speed stopping.
There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story.

I know, I just thought I'd point out the factual errors. I agree on the
fishy smell. Turn the ignition back to "Acc" or whatever it's called on
that car? Brake hard - pull up the emerg./parking brake?
a

PS - Or as "ben91932" points out - just plonk it in neutral. Was the CHP
officer driving?

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by a

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by a

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going
down
a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower
Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus
ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh.
a

I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and
Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system.
But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the car
down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make it
stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a cliff.
If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is
cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause the
passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not restrained
by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even
require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand
how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. Grandma
might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I think
CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high
speed stopping.
There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story.

I know, I just thought I'd point out the factual errors. I agree on the
fishy smell. Turn the ignition back to "Acc" or whatever it's called on
that car? Brake hard - pull up the emerg./parking brake?
a

The "key" is a button. I'm not sure how such a thing works, but the article
states that holding the button for 3 seconds will shut the car off, but it
could also lock the steering wheel. This is one of the many fishy parts of
the story.

[N8N]

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by a

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower
Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus
ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh.
a

I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and
Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system.
But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the car
down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make it
stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a cliff.
If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is
cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause the
passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not restrained
by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even
require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand
how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. Grandma
might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I think
CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high
speed stopping.
There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story.

I think part of the problem is these goofy new keyless ignition
switches that require weird non-intuitive sequences to perform an
emergency shutdown. Give me a good old fashioned key lock, on the
dash please.

I suspect we will be seeing more and more reports like this as the
cutesy features that designers are incorporating into new cars simply
confuse people in emergency situations. I've had a throttle linkage
stick on me before (actually due to a broken motor mount, which I
discovered when said throttle stuck) and it was a total non-event - I
simply stepped on the clutch pedal and reached down to the bottom of
the dash and turned the ignition key off as I did so. There's
advantages to standard control layouts and automotive designers would
be well served to remember this next time they try to reinvent the
wheel.

I agree that there should have been other ways to stop the car, e.g.
using the brakes, shifting to neutral (and just letting the engine
blow) etc. but in an emergency one is not always thinking clearly.

nate

[dsi1]

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by a

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.

It sure does. My guess is that it was not the cause of the crash, more
like a fanciful imagineering of an investigator. Unfortunately, these
are the things that catch the imagination of folks and it probably
doesn't matter much about what the real cause was anymore.

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by a

Post by Mike
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Brake_horsepower
Plus, plenty of Toyotas have top speeds rated above 120MPh, but the Lexus
ES quoted in the article can do north of 140MPh.
a

I think you're right on both counts -- The Lexus can exceed 120mph, and
Brake Horsepower is not a reflection of the power of the braking system.
But, I think you miss the point, the brakes should be able to drag the car
down to a managable speed so that the target one selects to finally make it
stop is not so traumatic as drilling the car into a cliff, or off a cliff.
If the brakes can drag the car down to 30, say, and then the ignition is
cut, the resulting heavy pressure on the brake pedal will surely cause the
passengers to be launched through the windshield if they are not restrained
by seat belts. Certainly, the brakes will be vary hot, and might even
require major service at the end of the day, but I just do not understand
how a trained CHP Officer would have so much trouble with this car. Grandma
might not deal with the same issues very well, but for some reason I think
CHP officers are trained in high speed pursuit that ought to include high
speed stopping.
There are far too many fishy "facts" to this story.

[hls]

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.

I dont know how fast our Avalon would go, but it has a good tranny and
268 horsepower to pull it. Speedometer indicates 160, but I have no idea
how fast you could really push it.

[Frankie Pintado]

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP

Yeah, that's how people do burnouts.
Please do not take this personally, but allow me to educate you.
If your accellerator sticks and you're already moving at say 65mph,
you will experience severe brake fade due to heat buildup, then you've
got no brakes. But, at the point where the brakes are glowing white,
shifting to neutral may not be enough to save you. You have to shift
to neutral before you try to stop with the brakes.
Almost all cars can at least do 100mph, all lexuses can do over 115
mph.

[a]

Post by Frankie Pintado

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP

Yeah, that's how people do burnouts.
Please do not take this personally, but allow me to educate you.
If your accellerator sticks and you're already moving at say 65mph,
you will experience severe brake fade due to heat buildup, then you've
got no brakes. But, at the point where the brakes are glowing white,
shifting to neutral may not be enough to save you. You have to shift
to neutral before you try to stop with the brakes.
Almost all cars can at least do 100mph, all lexuses can do over 115
mph.

Dude - You're talking to "Mike" - you left my name at the top and it looks
like you're replying to me...

a

[ben91932]

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?

He *was* going down a mountain. I live nearby and have driven that
grade many times.. even lost a master cylinder going down it several
years back... very scary...
It's a steep downhill coming off a long straight highway ending into
a 't' intersection, with a creek bed on the other side.
I have a Highlander with a similar engine (270ish HP v6) and have done
110 down that hill with throttle left over. The ES350 has a governed
top speed of 131mph.

Post by Mike
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.   If you
doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake with
you left foot and take note of what happens.   ;)

The car strains and slows a little until the brakes overheat and fade
away.
I still dont know why he didnt just slip it into nuetral and let the
engine scream...(or even if the car would let him..)
Very sad situation...

[Jeff]

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.   If you
doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake with
you left foot and take note of what happens.   ;)

Post by john
So watch those mats!
"Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars
for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas
pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four
family members in San Diego County.
Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to
about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of
their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that
the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the
Torrance-based company.
Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper
mats.
"If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of
their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons
said.
California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others
were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San
Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport
utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and
burst into flames.
The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries.
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother-
in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38.
Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the
vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck.
The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and
pray, followed by a woman's scream.
The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer
while their own vehicle was being serviced.
Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have
determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage
was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the
vehicle.
That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal.
"We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or
not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different
Lexus."
Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather
mats are sold as accessories.
The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine
from the automatic transmission, Lyons said.
The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by
holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have
locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power-
assist to the brakes, Lyons said.
Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched
floor mats.
In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its
Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip
and trap the accelerator.
However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from
the market during the recall, Lyons said. "
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/aut...

There is a thing called an "Ignition switch." Turn off the ignition
switch and the engine stops. This will slow down the car.

Jeff

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. If you
doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake with
you left foot and take note of what happens. ;)

Post by john
So watch those mats!
"Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars
for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas
pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four
family members in San Diego County.
Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to
about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of
their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that
the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the
Torrance-based company.
Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper
mats.
"If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of
their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons
said.
California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others
were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San
Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport
utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and
burst into flames.
The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries.
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother-
in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38.
Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the
vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck.
The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and
pray, followed by a woman's scream.
The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer
while their own vehicle was being serviced.
Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have
determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage
was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the
vehicle.
That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal.
"We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or
not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different
Lexus."
Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather
mats are sold as accessories.
The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine
from the automatic transmission, Lyons said.
The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by
holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have
locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power-
assist to the brakes, Lyons said.
Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched
floor mats.
In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its
Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip
and trap the accelerator.
However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from
the market during the recall, Lyons said. "
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/aut...

There is a thing called an "Ignition switch." Turn off the ignition
switch and the engine stops. This will slow down the car.

Jeff


<JS>
That's the point, Jeff. There is no "ignition switch," per se. You are
accustomed to getting in, putting your key into the switch and twisting it
to start the car and twisting it the other way to turn the car off at the
end of the trip.

The Lexus in this story has a device that is roughly equivelent to the
device at the store that detects you leaving with items that you have not
paid for. The car can read the device while it is in your pocket, or maybe
you have to wave it near the receptor, but in any case the car knows you are
there, and it startes when you press a button marked START.

You turn the car off by pressing the same START button and holding it. The
article states that this can lock the steering, which at 120mph presents an
entirely new set of problems.



</JS>

[dbu`]

Post by Jeff

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. If you
doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake with
you left foot and take note of what happens. ;)

Post by john
So watch those mats!
"Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars
for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas
pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four
family members in San Diego County.
Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to
about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of
their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that
the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the
Torrance-based company.
Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper
mats.
"If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of
their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons
said.
California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others
were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San
Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport
utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and
burst into flames.
The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries.
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother-
in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38.
Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the
vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck.
The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and
pray, followed by a woman's scream.
The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer
while their own vehicle was being serviced.
Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have
determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage
was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the
vehicle.
That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal.
"We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or
not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different
Lexus."
Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather
mats are sold as accessories.
The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine
from the automatic transmission, Lyons said.
The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by
holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have
locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power-
assist to the brakes, Lyons said.
Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched
floor mats.
In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its
Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip
and trap the accelerator.
However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from
the market during the recall, Lyons said. "
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/aut...

There is a thing called an "Ignition switch." Turn off the ignition
switch and the engine stops. This will slow down the car.
Jeff
<JS>
That's the point, Jeff. There is no "ignition switch," per se. You are
accustomed to getting in, putting your key into the switch and twisting it
to start the car and twisting it the other way to turn the car off at the
end of the trip.
The Lexus in this story has a device that is roughly equivelent to the
device at the store that detects you leaving with items that you have not
paid for. The car can read the device while it is in your pocket, or maybe
you have to wave it near the receptor, but in any case the car knows you are
there, and it startes when you press a button marked START.
You turn the car off by pressing the same START button and holding it. The
article states that this can lock the steering, which at 120mph presents an
entirely new set of problems.
</JS>

Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.
--

[dsi1]

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

[dbu`]

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

At least with the engine running the power brakes and steering are still
working. Your method would probably work too. Scary deal.
--

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by dbu`

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

At least with the engine running the power brakes and steering are still
working. Your method would probably work too. Scary deal.
--

I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Jeff Strickland
I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28. You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.
--scott

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Jeff Strickland
I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28. You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.
--scott

I had several minutes of braking with my E36, but at 60mph deadsticking down
the hill, it goes away long before the hill is gone.

PS
You dont get several minutes, you get several applications, and dead-stick
driving tends to use them up sooner than you might expect. When the motor is
running, I can select a gear that lets me do the same hill and use the
brakes just a few times in 7 miles, but when the engine is off, the need for
brakes is much higher ;-)

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Jeff Strickland
I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28. You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.

I had several minutes of braking with my E36, but at 60mph deadsticking down
the hill, it goes away long before the hill is gone.
PS
You dont get several minutes, you get several applications, and dead-stick
driving tends to use them up sooner than you might expect. When the motor is
running, I can select a gear that lets me do the same hill and use the
brakes just a few times in 7 miles, but when the engine is off, the need for
brakes is much higher ;-)

When I tried it with a brand new ball, I got 26 applications. I think the
manual says you are supposed to get 12.
--scott

[dsi1]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Jeff Strickland
I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28. You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.
--scott

What is a "nitrogen ball?"

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by dsi1

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Jeff Strickland
I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28. You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.

What is a "nitrogen ball?"

It's a compressed gas reservoir that keeps the braking system up to pressure
after engine power is lost.

The brake system on BMWs of that era is... really German. They never use one
part when they can use five instead.
--scott

[dsi1]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by dsi1

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Jeff Strickland
I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28. You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.

What is a "nitrogen ball?"

It's a compressed gas reservoir that keeps the braking system up to pressure
after engine power is lost.
The brake system on BMWs of that era is... really German. They never use one
part when they can use five instead.
--scott

That's a good idea. I used to have a VW Rabbit that had a vacuum
reservoir that looked like bunch of plastic spheres. I think it was
hooked up to the emission system - not the brakes. How does this
nitrogen ball work? The brake booster systems I'm familiar use the
engine vacuum to multiply brake pedal force.

As far as German engineering goes, I was very impressed with the rear
drum brake system on a Scirocco I used to have. They replaced the
standard self-adjusting drum brake wear hardware - starwheel, ratchet,
linkages and springs, with a simple wedge and spring. It's a beautiful
system. Mostly, I'm afraid of old-school English engineering. :-)

[N8N]

Post by dsi1

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by dsi1

I drove (rode)  my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28.  You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.

What is a "nitrogen ball?"

It's a compressed gas reservoir that keeps the braking system up to pressure
after engine power is lost.
The brake system on BMWs of that era is... really German.  They never use one
part when they can use five instead.
--scott

That's a good idea. I used to have a VW Rabbit that had a vacuum
reservoir that looked like bunch of plastic spheres. I think it was
hooked up to the emission system - not the brakes. How does this
nitrogen ball work? The brake booster systems I'm familiar use the
engine vacuum to multiply brake pedal force.
As far as German engineering goes, I was very impressed with the rear
drum brake system on a Scirocco I used to have. They replaced the
standard self-adjusting drum brake wear hardware - starwheel, ratchet,
linkages and springs, with a simple wedge and spring. It's a beautiful
system. Mostly, I'm afraid of old-school English engineering. :-)

well, that WAS a good adjuster system except they got the geometry of
the wedge wrong... if your drums had a lot of miles on them and were
worn slightly oversized the adjuster wedge would run out of adjustment
LONG before you ran out of brake shoe, so the brake pedal got real
mushy. I know this from personal experience :) Of course rear drums
for those cars were like $25 apiece back in the day...

nate

[dsi1]

Post by N8N

Post by dsi1
As far as German engineering goes, I was very impressed with the rear
drum brake system on a Scirocco I used to have. They replaced the
standard self-adjusting drum brake wear hardware - starwheel, ratchet,
linkages and springs, with a simple wedge and spring. It's a beautiful
system. Mostly, I'm afraid of old-school English engineering. :-)

well, that WAS a good adjuster system except they got the geometry of
the wedge wrong... if your drums had a lot of miles on them and were
worn slightly oversized the adjuster wedge would run out of adjustment
LONG before you ran out of brake shoe, so the brake pedal got real
mushy. I know this from personal experience :) Of course rear drums
for those cars were like $25 apiece back in the day...
nate

I would tend to change out the shoes before they needed to because I'd
already have the parts and as long as the drum was off it seemed like
the easier way to go. I sure wish I had one of those first series car
again - but they don't seem to have survived this new century due to
their old-school rust protection. The one I had was riddled with holes.
People would laugh at me. Well, at least the brakes and drive train was
fine. :-)

[Nate Nagel]

Post by dsi1

Post by N8N

Post by dsi1
As far as German engineering goes, I was very impressed with the rear
drum brake system on a Scirocco I used to have. They replaced the
standard self-adjusting drum brake wear hardware - starwheel, ratchet,
linkages and springs, with a simple wedge and spring. It's a beautiful
system. Mostly, I'm afraid of old-school English engineering. :-)

well, that WAS a good adjuster system except they got the geometry of
the wedge wrong... if your drums had a lot of miles on them and were
worn slightly oversized the adjuster wedge would run out of adjustment
LONG before you ran out of brake shoe, so the brake pedal got real
mushy. I know this from personal experience :) Of course rear drums
for those cars were like $25 apiece back in the day...
nate

I would tend to change out the shoes before they needed to because I'd
already have the parts and as long as the drum was off it seemed like
the easier way to go. I sure wish I had one of those first series car
again - but they don't seem to have survived this new century due to
their old-school rust protection. The one I had was riddled with holes.
People would laugh at me. Well, at least the brakes and drive train was
fine. :-)

I sold an '84 'roccet - my last A1 chassis VW - back around 2004 or so
for $600. It was still quite solid. I think I sold it just because I
was paying more for insurance on it (I lived in a "high risk" area at
the time) every year than the car was worth, and it was my second car.
If I'd kept it I'd probably still have it today, as I now have a company
car, so it'd be perfectly acceptable as a personal use vehicle.

I think the only major problem I had with it was a worn bearing in the
trans that caused it to keep losing its gear oil through the output
shaft seal at about 200K miles. Not bad for a little econobox, and it
was a kick in the arse to drive and all-day comfortable. I drove it for
MANY trips to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and once to Vermont in December.
No problems/worries ever about driving so far in such an "old" car. I
miss that car.

nate

[dsi1]

Post by Nate Nagel
I sold an '84 'roccet - my last A1 chassis VW - back around 2004 or so
for $600. It was still quite solid. I think I sold it just because I
was paying more for insurance on it (I lived in a "high risk" area at
the time) every year than the car was worth, and it was my second car.
If I'd kept it I'd probably still have it today, as I now have a company
car, so it'd be perfectly acceptable as a personal use vehicle.
I think the only major problem I had with it was a worn bearing in the
trans that caused it to keep losing its gear oil through the output
shaft seal at about 200K miles. Not bad for a little econobox, and it
was a kick in the arse to drive and all-day comfortable. I drove it for
MANY trips to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and once to Vermont in December. No
problems/worries ever about driving so far in such an "old" car. I miss
that car.
nate

No doubt it's a car that one remembers fondly. I used to sit like a king
in a semi-reclined position in that thing - something not possible with
the other cars I've had. The car had the standard engine and a 4 speed.
It could have been dumb luck but I don't think I've ever had a manual
transmission car where the engine and the gear ratios and the driver
were so perfectly matched. Oh well, what can you say? That was then and
this is now... :-)

[ben91932]

Another fatal crash @ same intersection last night...
Talked to a Lexus tech and:
Pushing the ignition button on the Lexus does not lock the steering,
and the car can be shifted to neutral while driving.
Something was up with that guy...

[Hachiroku]

Post by dsi1

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by dsi1

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Jeff Strickland
I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28. You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.

What is a "nitrogen ball?"

It's a compressed gas reservoir that keeps the braking system up to pressure
after engine power is lost.
The brake system on BMWs of that era is... really German. They never use one
part when they can use five instead.
--scott

That's a good idea. I used to have a VW Rabbit that had a vacuum
reservoir that looked like bunch of plastic spheres. I think it was
hooked up to the emission system - not the brakes. How does this
nitrogen ball work? The brake booster systems I'm familiar use the
engine vacuum to multiply brake pedal force.
As far as German engineering goes, I was very impressed with the rear
drum brake system on a Scirocco I used to have. They replaced the
standard self-adjusting drum brake wear hardware - starwheel, ratchet,
linkages and springs, with a simple wedge and spring. It's a beautiful
system. Mostly, I'm afraid of old-school English engineering. :-)

Or Lucas, the Prince of Darkness...

[N8N]

Post by dsi1

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by dsi1

I drove (rode)  my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28.  You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.

What is a "nitrogen ball?"

It's a compressed gas reservoir that keeps the braking system up to pressure
after engine power is lost.
The brake system on BMWs of that era is... really German.  They never use one
part when they can use five instead.
--scott

That's a good idea. I used to have a VW Rabbit that had a vacuum
reservoir that looked like bunch of plastic spheres. I think it was
hooked up to the emission system - not the brakes. How does this
nitrogen ball work? The brake booster systems I'm familiar use the
engine vacuum to multiply brake pedal force.
As far as German engineering goes, I was very impressed with the rear
drum brake system on a Scirocco I used to have. They replaced the
standard self-adjusting drum brake wear hardware - starwheel, ratchet,
linkages and springs, with a simple wedge and spring. It's a beautiful
system. Mostly, I'm afraid of old-school English engineering. :-)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The E28 BMW used a hydraulic booster somewhat akin to GM's Hydroboost
not a vacuum booster so the nitrogen ball was to keep the hydraulic
system pressurized when the pump couldn't keep up, so you didn't
suddenly lose brake pressure or steering assist. i'm assuming that
that was for packaging reasons because IIRC the 528s used a
conventional vacuum booster but the 535s (different, larger engine
block) used the hydraulic. I actually had a 535 back in the day and
just before I sold it I believe the "bomb" failed - symptoms were that
you would step on the brakes and there'd be a delay of about a second
or so before the boost kicked in. A little disconcerting, but I ended
up selling the car (cheap) because I was moving so I never had it
fixed..

Nate

[dsi1]

Post by N8N
The E28 BMW used a hydraulic booster somewhat akin to GM's Hydroboost
not a vacuum booster so the nitrogen ball was to keep the hydraulic
system pressurized when the pump couldn't keep up, so you didn't
suddenly lose brake pressure or steering assist. i'm assuming that
that was for packaging reasons because IIRC the 528s used a
conventional vacuum booster but the 535s (different, larger engine
block) used the hydraulic. I actually had a 535 back in the day and
just before I sold it I believe the "bomb" failed - symptoms were that
you would step on the brakes and there'd be a delay of about a second
or so before the boost kicked in. A little disconcerting, but I ended
up selling the car (cheap) because I was moving so I never had it
fixed..
Nate

Thanks for the info. I have never heard of the Hydroboost system before
but a web search took care of that right quick. :-)

It seems like a nifty, compact system and from what I've read, provides
more linear braking. From the retrofit instructions, it seems pretty
easy to install, although there doesn't seem to be provisions for ABS.
OTOH, these seem to be mostly retrofitted to trucks.

[ben91932]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by dsi1
What is a "nitrogen ball?"

It's a compressed gas reservoir that keeps the braking system up to pressure
after engine power is lost.

Isnt the nitrogen reservoir limited to abs applications?
I may be wrong, but I thought the cars with the nitrogen balls have
vacuum assist as well>???

[Hachiroku]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Jeff Strickland
I drove (rode) my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28. You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.
--scott

THAT'S what the hell that thing is!

[N8N]

Post by Hachiroku

I drove (rode)  my BMW dead-stick down a mountain road for about 7 miles.
Steering was no problem, brake effort was high, but not a problem.

Shoulda got an E28.  You get several minutes of braking with the engine
off, courtesy of the nitrogen ball.
--scott

THAT'S what the hell that thing is!

ASSuming it works. If it fails, braking gets real squirrely.

nate

[dsi1]

Post by dbu`

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

At least with the engine running the power brakes and steering are still
working. Your method would probably work too. Scary deal.

I've had my master cylinder fail on 2 cars. I must be unlucky. One was a
Plymouth Caravan and the other was a Chevy Cavalier. luckily, there was
a tree nearby to stop the Caravan. The only good thing about that option
is that there's no question that you'll come to a stop. :-)

On the Cavalier, I used the handbrake to drive to work. I knew a guy
with a jeep that drove with no brakes. He just downshifted when he
wanted to slow down, then again, that pig was geared kinda low...

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the lower
gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

Slam it into Park? That's not going to do anything, and downshifting a car
running at full throttle is not going to slow down anytime soon.

[dsi1]

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the lower
gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

Slam it into Park? That's not going to do anything, and downshifting a car
running at full throttle is not going to slow down anytime soon.

I betcha a dollar that downshifting at full throttle will indeed slow a
car down. Try in on your car.

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by dsi1

Post by Jeff Strickland

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

Slam it into Park? That's not going to do anything, and downshifting a
car running at full throttle is not going to slow down anytime soon.

I betcha a dollar that downshifting at full throttle will indeed slow a
car down. Try in on your car.

I'd rather try it on your car, my car has a clutch that will alter the
effects. I'm pretty sure my car will stop under full throttle, and if it
remains in 5th while attempting to stop, the engine will stall eventually
where an automatic will simply downshift and try to overpower the brakes.

It won't slow as much as selecting N and mashing the brake pedal.

[dsi1]

Post by Jeff Strickland
I'd rather try it on your car, my car has a clutch that will alter the
effects. I'm pretty sure my car will stop under full throttle, and if it
remains in 5th while attempting to stop, the engine will stall eventually
where an automatic will simply downshift and try to overpower the brakes.
It won't slow as much as selecting N and mashing the brake pedal.

I'm confused - you wouldn't leave a manual transmission in 5th gear if
you wanted to stop. I'm assuming that the brakes don't work so the only
way to slow down a car would be to downshift. You could use the parking
brake - assuming the new fangled Lexus has one of those. My guess is
that downshifting would work better at high speeds. Anyway, you'd
probably find yourself going sideways if you applied the handbrake at
over a 100 MPH.

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by Jeff Strickland
I'd rather try it on your car, my car has a clutch that will alter the
effects. I'm pretty sure my car will stop under full throttle, and if it
remains in 5th while attempting to stop, the engine will stall eventually
where an automatic will simply downshift and try to overpower the brakes.
It won't slow as much as selecting N and mashing the brake pedal.

I'm confused - you wouldn't leave a manual transmission in 5th gear if you
wanted to stop. I'm assuming that the brakes don't work so the only way to
slow down a car would be to downshift. You could use the parking brake -
assuming the new fangled Lexus has one of those. My guess is that
downshifting would work better at high speeds. Anyway, you'd probably find
yourself going sideways if you applied the handbrake at over a 100 MPH.

You are confused. I'll go along with that.

The conditions are, the throttle is stuck on full, and the car is doing 100+
mph. What are you gonna do?

I'm gonna stand on the brakes until it's stopped, and select N somewhere
along the line. I would give serious consideration to turning the engine
off.

I'm not going to consider downshifting because if the engine is going at
full throttle, the car is not going to stop because of the power
multiplication that happens when the gear ratio is lowered. Indeed, the
brakes have a far better chance of overpowering the engine if the
transmission is in a higher gear rather than a lower one.

I owned a Jeep that I could not stall if the transmission was in 1st and the
transfer case was in LO range. The torque was far greater than the ability
of the brakes. I could stall the engine with the brakes in 4th and HI range,
but in LO range, I could get out and walk faster than the Jeep would go by
itself, but I could not stop it with the brakes without depressing the
clutch pedal.

A car that is barrelling down the highway at 100+ mph has very little
torque, and the brakes can easily overpower the engine. The problem will
become -- as some point -- that the lowered speed will force a downshift
that can exceed the braking system. At this point, you should be able to
kill the engine and stop the car. You could probably run into something to
stop the car and live to tell the story.

[dsi1]

Post by Jeff Strickland
You are confused. I'll go along with that.

I was assuming that the brakes didn't work. If they do work, there's no
problem as far as I can see.

Post by Jeff Strickland
The conditions are, the throttle is stuck on full, and the car is doing 100+
mph. What are you gonna do?
I'm gonna stand on the brakes until it's stopped, and select N somewhere
along the line. I would give serious consideration to turning the engine
off.
I'm not going to consider downshifting because if the engine is going at
full throttle, the car is not going to stop because of the power
multiplication that happens when the gear ratio is lowered. Indeed, the
brakes have a far better chance of overpowering the engine if the
transmission is in a higher gear rather than a lower one.
I owned a Jeep that I could not stall if the transmission was in 1st and the
transfer case was in LO range. The torque was far greater than the ability
of the brakes. I could stall the engine with the brakes in 4th and HI range,
but in LO range, I could get out and walk faster than the Jeep would go by
itself, but I could not stop it with the brakes without depressing the
clutch pedal.
A car that is barrelling down the highway at 100+ mph has very little
torque, and the brakes can easily overpower the engine. The problem will
become -- as some point -- that the lowered speed will force a downshift
that can exceed the braking system. At this point, you should be able to
kill the engine and stop the car. You could probably run into something to
stop the car and live to tell the story.

[in2dadark]

I haven't seen a car yet that you can't slip into neutral and disable
the engine by shutting it off. You should not see the steering lock
up unless it is in park. This is a standard safety feature since
forever..This guy was a former cop and couldn't handle this
situation..?

What was he doing on the cell phone. The last thing I would do in
'that' situation is make a call on a cell phone. ' Hello my
accelerator is stuck can you come over here and unstick it.. How long
do you think it'll take for you all to get here.' -WTF?

The only one who could help you in this situation is you.. As others
have said, it doens't add up..

[MasterBlaster]

Post by in2dadark
What was he doing on the cell phone. The last thing I would do in
'that' situation is make a call on a cell phone. ' Hello my
accelerator is stuck can you come over here and unstick it.. How long
do you think it'll take for you all to get here.' -WTF?

Did you not actually read the article?

Post by in2dadark

Post by john
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and

Saylor's brother-in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38. <<<<<
Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash.... <<<<<

Chris called while Mark (I presume) tried to steer around things.

And no, I don't know why the driver didn't either turn the ignition off (another
confusing "Start" button... thanks, Microsoft!), or shift it to a lower gear or neutral,
or if the 911 operator was also clueless about what to do.

[dsi1]

Post by MasterBlaster

Post by in2dadark
What was he doing on the cell phone. The last thing I would do in
'that' situation is make a call on a cell phone. ' Hello my
accelerator is stuck can you come over here and unstick it.. How long
do you think it'll take for you all to get here.' -WTF?

Did you not actually read the article?

Post by in2dadark

Post by john
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and

Saylor's brother-in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38. <<<<<
Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash.... <<<<<

Chris called while Mark (I presume) tried to steer around things.
And no, I don't know why the driver didn't either turn the ignition off (another
confusing "Start" button... thanks, Microsoft!), or shift it to a lower gear or neutral,
or if the 911 operator was also clueless about what to do.

It sure does sound like an internet hoax.

[in2dadark]

Post by MasterBlaster

 What was he doing on the cell phone. The last thing I would do in
'that' situation is make a call on a cell phone.    ' Hello my
accelerator is stuck can you come over here and unstick it.. How long
do you think it'll take for you all to get here.' -WTF?

Did you not actually read the article?

Post by john
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and

 Saylor's brother-in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38. <<<<<
 Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash.... <<<<<

Chris called while Mark (I presume) tried to steer around things.
And no, I don't know why the driver didn't either turn the ignition off (another
confusing "Start" button... thanks, Microsoft!), or shift it to a lower gear or neutral,
or if the 911 operator was also clueless about what to do.

I heard the call. Not sure if you did. One of the first things the 911
operator said was 'can you shut it off?'....

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by in2dadark
I haven't seen a car yet that you can't slip into neutral and disable
the engine by shutting it off. You should not see the steering lock
up unless it is in park. This is a standard safety feature since
forever..This guy was a former cop and couldn't handle this
situation..?
What was he doing on the cell phone. The last thing I would do in
'that' situation is make a call on a cell phone. ' Hello my
accelerator is stuck can you come over here and unstick it.. How long
do you think it'll take for you all to get here.' -WTF?
The only one who could help you in this situation is you.. As others
have said, it doens't add up..

The brother in law was on the phone, not the cop.

The steering lock works by the key position, this car does not use a key.
The owner has a dongle that is an RFID device that the car recognizes, and
enables the START button. When the car is started, the steering unlocks.

The sixty four thousand dollar question is if the steering locks just
because the START button is held long enough to kill the engine, but before
the car is put into Park. (Does the Lexus ES even have a manual transmission
as an option?) There is speculation in the story that the steering locks
when the engine is off, which makes sense if the car is parked at the time,
but presents a host of problems at 100+ mph.

[a]

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

No, but with the engine bouncing off the rev limiter you can coast to a
gentle and controlled stop.

a

[a]

Post by a

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

No, but with the engine bouncing off the rev limiter you can coast to a
gentle and controlled stop.
a

PS - using the brakes!

[E. Meyer]

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

Same problem as the (lack of an) ignition switch. These new computer
controlled cars won't go into a lower gear if the ECU decides it will make
the engine over-rev. You can select it, but nothing will happen.

[a]

Post by E. Meyer

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

Same problem as the (lack of an) ignition switch. These new computer
controlled cars won't go into a lower gear if the ECU decides it will make
the engine over-rev. You can select it, but nothing will happen.

Wait - were the brakes inoperable too? Because shifting to neutral and
braking normally would have worked just fine.

a

[P.V.]

Post by a

Post by E. Meyer
Same problem as the (lack of an) ignition switch. These new computer
controlled cars won't go into a lower gear if the ECU decides it will make
the engine over-rev. You can select it, but nothing will happen.

Wait - were the brakes inoperable too? Because shifting to neutral and
braking normally would have worked just fine.

I bet the brakes were operable at first, but the driver had made them
inoperable by trying to brake without shifting to neutral.

P.V.

[Ray O]

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the lower
gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

The electronically controlled will not allow downshifting if vehicle speed
and engine RPM are out of range for a particular gear, although it should
come out of overdrive. It will allow shifting into neutral.

[Hachiroku]

Post by dsi1

Post by dbu`
Shift to N and bail out after stopping. Let the damn thing self
destruct.

Shifting to N won't slow you down much - better to go to through the
lower gears. Slam it into park when you think you're slow enough...

Shifting into low and hitting the brakes will.

[ben91932]

Post by Jeff
There is a thing called an "Ignition switch." Turn off the ignition
switch and the engine stops. This will slow down the car.

I'm no 100% sure, but with the Lexus style of push button ignition,
doesnt the steering lock after the engine shuts down???

[Sharx35]

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?

My 99 Camry 6 cyl. will go into the 130's.

Post by Mike
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP. If
you doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake
with you left foot and take note of what happens. ;)

Post by john
So watch those mats!
"Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars
for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas
pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four
family members in San Diego County.
Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to
about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of
their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that
the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the
Torrance-based company.
Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper
mats.
"If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of
their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons
said.
California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others
were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San
Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport
utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and
burst into flames.
The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries.
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother-
in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38.
Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the
vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck.
The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and
pray, followed by a woman's scream.
The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer
while their own vehicle was being serviced.
Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have
determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage
was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the
vehicle.
That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal.
"We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or
not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different
Lexus."
Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather
mats are sold as accessories.
The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine
from the automatic transmission, Lyons said.
The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by
holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have
locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power-
assist to the brakes, Lyons said.
Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched
floor mats.
In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its
Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip
and trap the accelerator.
However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from
the market during the recall, Lyons said. "
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/auto01/Mismatched+floor+mat+may+have+caused+deadly+SoCal+crash++Toyota+orders+inspections

[Hachiroku]

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?

If my 1985 Corolla GTS 4 cylinder twin cam hit 130 on a flat run between
Kinston and Oshawa ONT, then I think a 6 cyl Lexus should probably be able
to surpass that.

[Harry]

This is a 3.5L making 272 horse power, it would do 150mph no problem.

Post by Mike
I'm no Toyota fanatic but that story sounds fishy to me.
I the first place what Toyota can reach 120 MPH, except while going down a
mountain?
In the second place EVERY vehicle has more brake HP than engine HP.   If you
doubt that floor the throttle on YOUR vehicle and apply the foot brake with
you left foot and take note of what happens.   ;)

Post by john
So watch those mats!
"Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars
for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas
pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four
family members in San Diego County.
Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. planned to issue an order Wednesday to
about 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to make sure each of
their new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that
the mats were properly secured, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the
Torrance-based company.
Customers who are concerned should also make sure they have the proper
mats.
"If there's any doubt in their mind about the security and shape of
their mat, go ahead and visit the dealer" to have them checked, Lyons
said.
California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others
were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San
Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport
utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and
burst into flames.
The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries.
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother-
in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38.
Lastrella made a 911 call about a minute before the crash to say the
vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck.
The call ends with someone telling people in the car to hold on and
pray, followed by a woman's scream.
The family was in a 2009 Lexus ES 350 that was loaned by a dealer
while their own vehicle was being serviced.
Investigators with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have
determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage
was a couple of inches longer than the mat that belonged in the
vehicle.
That could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal.
"We don't know if the all-weather floor mat was properly secured or
not," he said. "We do know that it was a floor mat from a different
Lexus."
Lyons said most Toyotas come with carpeted floor mats, but all-weather
mats are sold as accessories.
The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine
from the automatic transmission, Lyons said.
The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by
holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have
locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power-
assist to the brakes, Lyons said.
Lyons said the company had not had any complaints about mismatched
floor mats.
In 2007, the company did recall all-weather mats from some of its
Lexus ES 350s and Toyota Camrys after complaints that they could slip
and trap the accelerator.
However, this crash was unrelated to the mats that were pulled from
the market during the recall, Lyons said. "
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090916/AUTO01/909160398/1148/aut...

[hls]

Post by john
So watch those mats!
"Toyota said Tuesday it will order all dealers to inspect their cars
for mismatched floor mats after a mat was suspected of snagging a gas
pedal on a runaway Lexus, ending with a fiery crash that killed four
family members in San Diego County.

Both of our Toyotas came with special floor mats that attach to the floor
with hooks, to keep the mats from creeping upward and bunching up around
the brake and accelerator pedals. I suspect the Lexuses have similar mat
hold-downs.

I put some aftermarket protector mats in both cars (Walmart, but nice
looking)
and find that one of the sets works fine, doesnt creep, but the other does
creep up and is a potential cause of problems.

Word to the wise is to deal with this before you have a problem

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by john
The driver could have put the car in neutral to disengage the engine
from the automatic transmission, Lyons said.
The driver also could have turned off the electronically keyed car by
holding down the start switch for three seconds, but that could have
locked the steering wheel, turned off the headlights and cut power-
assist to the brakes, Lyons said.

Here is a serious problem, if true.

The car should not lock the steering until after Park is selected. If a car
starts to go out of control full-throttle, it is a natural instinct (at
least for me) to cut power to the engine and deal with the rest of the
issues as they come up. If the Ignition has a RUN and LOCK, but no OFF
(where the engine is not running, but the steering is not locked), then I
see this as a very serious safety flaw.

I had my car suffer a serious engine problem many years ago and I did not
have enough towing service to get it home. I set the ignition to off and the
transmission ot N, and coasted for something like 7 miles down a two-lane
mountain road. If my car had been a Lexus, I would not be able to do that
because the steering is locked. The grade was no very steep, just enough to
keep the car going. There are lots of safety issues with coasting a car for
7 miles, but hey, young and foolish is often the road to old and wise.

This story strikes me as odd though.

I have very limited experience here, but I have always thought that the
brakes on a car should be able to bring a car to a stop, or at least to a
more managable speed. I am also baffled by the report that the driver was a
CHP officer, but that he could not control the car by selecting N. I'm sure
that such an action would in all likelihood be fatal for the engine IF the
gas pedal was indeed stuck, but a fatality for the machine is far better
than the four fatalities of people.

[DaveW]

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:41:14 -0700 (PDT), john <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:

<cross-posted headers snipped>

So now you're not content to troll just the Lexus newsgroup, and you
feel the need to cross post to four groups? Your unhealthy bitterness
toward an auto manufacturer has taken you to new depths. Who'd have
thought you could be even more of an asshole than you already were?
Congratulations!

You really are starved for attention, aren't you john?

[john]

First of all it's unfortunate what happened to the family. So I
wouldn't want to second guess what was or was not done at the time.

But according to the CHP Academy web site. Each cadet will have 27
weeks and 1,000 hours of training. Some of which include Emergency
Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC).

Now my question is that if a CHP officer with EVOC training can't stop
a runaway Camry (Lexus ES), who can?

The Emergency Vehicle Operations Course (EVOC) is famous throughout
the world as the finest law enforcement driver training program
available. The course consists of a 2.3-mile, high-performance driving
track, two skid recovery practice areas and a defensive driving
course. Additional riding facilities are provided for the Motorcycle
Enforcement Training Course.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/academybrochure.html

[Hachiroku]

Post by john
California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three others
were killed Aug. 28 on State Route 125 in Santee, a town near San
Diego. The runaway car was doing more than 120 mph when it hit a sport
utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and
burst into flames.
The SUV driver was treated for moderate injuries.
In addition to Saylor, who was a 19-year CHP veteran, the crash killed
his wife, Cleofe, 45; their daughter, Mahala, 13; and Saylor's brother-
in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38.

Whatwas the matter with him? Drunk?
ALL State Police officers undergo a 40 hour advanced driving skills class.
A CHP officer allowing a car to get out of control doesn't seem very
likely.

[ACAR]

On Sep 17, 2:41 am, john <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

reminds me of the runaway Audi stories...

in the Audi case the gas/brake pedals were too close together and not
aligned with the seat like other cars so drivers were simply stomping
on the gas when they thought they were on the brake. (Manual shift
Audi drivers loved the pedal placement, of course.)

in this case the fault is said to lie with improper floor matts; not
with a driver too dumb to recognize the problem and place his foot
under the gas pedal and pull it up to free it from the matt. I had
this happen to me years ago in some borrowed car.

My Toyota car has a nice hook to hold it's driver's side floor matt in
place. That's more than I can say for my Honda or GM products.

[MasterBlaster]

Post by ACAR
reminds me of the runaway Audi stories...
in this case the fault is said to lie with improper floor matts; not
with a driver too dumb to recognize the problem and place his foot
under the gas pedal and pull it up to free it from the matt. I had
this happen to me years ago in some borrowed car.

No throttle cable. It's "drive-by-wire". Pulling up would do nothing.

Anybody post this link? The boss was reading through it today.
Seems there's been a lot of complaints about the same thing.
http://autocoverup.com/2009/04/06/lexus-sudden-acceleration/
(Lots of other sites with similar content).

I also don't buy the floormat excuse, since the boss also found
a post with the same symptoms, with NO floormats in the car.

Let's see...
Cruise control -- computer decides how fast you want to go.
Drive-by-wire -- computer decides how far to open the throttle.
ABS -- computer decides if / when to allow the brakes to work, based
on whether it "thinks" 1 (or 4) wheels are locked up and sliding.

Some kind of random massive computer glitch that affects all these
systems, and the car takes off, disables the brakes, and you pray.

[E. Meyer]

Post by MasterBlaster

Post by ACAR
reminds me of the runaway Audi stories...
in this case the fault is said to lie with improper floor matts; not
with a driver too dumb to recognize the problem and place his foot
under the gas pedal and pull it up to free it from the matt. I had
this happen to me years ago in some borrowed car.

No throttle cable. It's "drive-by-wire". Pulling up would do nothing.
Anybody post this link? The boss was reading through it today.
Seems there's been a lot of complaints about the same thing.
http://autocoverup.com/2009/04/06/lexus-sudden-acceleration/
(Lots of other sites with similar content).
I also don't buy the floormat excuse, since the boss also found
a post with the same symptoms, with NO floormats in the car.
Let's see...
Cruise control -- computer decides how fast you want to go.
Drive-by-wire -- computer decides how far to open the throttle.
ABS -- computer decides if / when to allow the brakes to work, based
on whether it "thinks" 1 (or 4) wheels are locked up and sliding.
Some kind of random massive computer glitch that affects all these
systems, and the car takes off, disables the brakes, and you pray.

So what's really going on is the terminator story. Only its not robot
clones of Arnold S., its self-aware car computers selectively killing us off
:)

[E. Meyer]

On 9/23/09 10:34 PM, in article

Post by ACAR
reminds me of the runaway Audi stories...
in the Audi case the gas/brake pedals were too close together and not
aligned with the seat like other cars so drivers were simply stomping
on the gas when they thought they were on the brake. (Manual shift
Audi drivers loved the pedal placement, of course.)
in this case the fault is said to lie with improper floor matts; not
with a driver too dumb to recognize the problem and place his foot
under the gas pedal and pull it up to free it from the matt. I had
this happen to me years ago in some borrowed car.
My Toyota car has a nice hook to hold it's driver's side floor matt in
place. That's more than I can say for my Honda or GM products.

Every Honda I've had since '96 has had hooks to anchor the mats. As I look
in the old '91 240SX it does as well (passenger side too).

The problem here has been explained that some moron in the dealership tossed
a second layer of mats that were for a different model over the properly
anchored ones.

[N8N]

Post by ACAR
reminds me of the runaway Audi stories...
in the Audi case the gas/brake pedals were too close together and not
aligned with the seat like other cars so drivers were simply stomping
on the gas when they thought they were on the brake. (Manual shift
Audi drivers loved the pedal placement, of course.)
in this case the fault is said to lie with improper floor matts; not
with a driver too dumb to recognize the problem and place his foot
under the gas pedal and pull it up to free it from the matt. I had
this happen to me years ago in some borrowed car.
My Toyota car has a nice hook to hold it's driver's side floor matt in
place. That's more than I can say for my Honda or GM products.

My '08 Impala has a hook on the driver side floor for the floor mat,
but the ones that came with the car are stored away in a safe place
while I'm using molded WeatherTech mats (which are great, by the way,
even though their advertising seems a little cheezy. I still prefer
the heavy black rubber ones that VW offers as an accessory through
their dealerships, but GM apparently doesn't see fit to offer a
similar product.) The thought of putting tan-colored carpeted floor
mats in a car that is used for visiting construction sites seems a
little silly to me.

I'm trying to remember if the '05 had a hook and now I just don't
recall.

nate

[aemeijers]

Post by N8N

Post by ACAR
reminds me of the runaway Audi stories...
in the Audi case the gas/brake pedals were too close together and not
aligned with the seat like other cars so drivers were simply stomping
on the gas when they thought they were on the brake. (Manual shift
Audi drivers loved the pedal placement, of course.)
in this case the fault is said to lie with improper floor matts; not
with a driver too dumb to recognize the problem and place his foot
under the gas pedal and pull it up to free it from the matt. I had
this happen to me years ago in some borrowed car.
My Toyota car has a nice hook to hold it's driver's side floor matt in
place. That's more than I can say for my Honda or GM products.

My '08 Impala has a hook on the driver side floor for the floor mat,
but the ones that came with the car are stored away in a safe place
while I'm using molded WeatherTech mats (which are great, by the way,
even though their advertising seems a little cheezy. I still prefer
the heavy black rubber ones that VW offers as an accessory through
their dealerships, but GM apparently doesn't see fit to offer a
similar product.) The thought of putting tan-colored carpeted floor
mats in a car that is used for visiting construction sites seems a
little silly to me.
I'm trying to remember if the '05 had a hook and now I just don't
recall.
nate

My 92 Taurus did, and it worked. I miss it in the other cars I have had
since then.

--
aem sends...

[Mike Hunter]

If one had followed the Audi case they would have discovered the NHTSA ruled
the cause was DRIVER error, period.


"ACAR" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:af985374-a9e4-46a3-b991-***@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 17, 2:41 am, john <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

reminds me of the runaway Audi stories...

in the Audi case the gas/brake pedals were too close together and not
aligned with the seat like other cars so drivers were simply stomping
on the gas when they thought they were on the brake. (Manual shift
Audi drivers loved the pedal placement, of course.)

in this case the fault is said to lie with improper floor matts; not
with a driver too dumb to recognize the problem and place his foot
under the gas pedal and pull it up to free it from the matt. I had
this happen to me years ago in some borrowed car.

My Toyota car has a nice hook to hold it's driver's side floor matt in
place. That's more than I can say for my Honda or GM products.