Toyota blocks access to 'black box' data

Post by john
That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=

It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like OBD II
data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be public
domain as well.

It's my car, it's my data.

Ray O

2010-03-05 03:34:23 UTC

It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like OBD
II data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be
public domain as well.
It's my car, it's my data.

EDR's will become required equipment soon, the regulations are already in
place.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Jeff Strickland

2010-03-05 17:56:03 UTC

Post by Ray O

It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like OBD
II data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be
public domain as well.
It's my car, it's my data.

EDR's will become required equipment soon, the regulations are already in
place.
--

Yeah, but the data they contain needs to be standardized. Today, the data is
sorta like the old OBD I spec, it was there but it took a variety of methods
to get to it, depending on the make and model of the car they needed to get
the data out of. The data needs to be standardized to facilitate extraction
and analysis.

Ray O

2010-03-05 20:04:31 UTC

Post by Ray O

It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like
OBD II data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be
public domain as well.
It's my car, it's my data.

EDR's will become required equipment soon, the regulations are already in
place.
--

Yeah, but the data they contain needs to be standardized. Today, the data
is sorta like the old OBD I spec, it was there but it took a variety of
methods to get to it, depending on the make and model of the car they
needed to get the data out of. The data needs to be standardized to
facilitate extraction and analysis.

Starting with 2013 MY vehicles made after September 1, 2012, EDR data format
and minimum data collected will be standardized and the method for
retrieving the data will have to be made public. I'm not sure if that means
that the devices used to retrieve the data will be universal or not. This
doesn't mean that all vehicles will have EDR's, just that if it does have
one, it will have to meet minimum standards.

The challenge is that although the data belongs to the vehicle owner,
interpretation of the data is beyond the average vehicle owner's
capabilities, and probably beyond just about everyone without an automotive
engineering background so even if you could easily access the data, you
would probably have to pay someone to interpret the data correctly. This is
kind of like saying that anyone could buy an EKG or ECG machine, but it
takes training to be able to use the data the machines produce.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

FridoLay

2010-03-05 04:28:58 UTC

It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like OBD II
data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be public
domain as well.
It's my car, it's my data.

Miss the laughingly named 'USA Patriot Act'??

Scott Dorsey

2010-03-05 03:12:54 UTC

Post by john
Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.

ALL car manufacturers consider this proprietary information. You're lucky
that they even use the standard OBD-II codes and they wouldn't even do that
if the government didn't require them.

ANY information beyond the standard codes is proprietary. Many people have
reverse engineered the data for a lot of cars and so you can get historical
data with many scanners, but the actual interrogation codes are proprietary
because people could... horrors... use them to actually fix cars without
taking them to the dealer.

Next thing you know you'll be asking them to make ECM source code public.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Vic Smith

2010-03-05 12:53:48 UTC

Post by Scott Dorsey

ALL car manufacturers consider this proprietary information. You're lucky
that they even use the standard OBD-II codes and they wouldn't even do that
if the government didn't require them.
ANY information beyond the standard codes is proprietary. Many people have
reverse engineered the data for a lot of cars and so you can get historical
data with many scanners, but the actual interrogation codes are proprietary
because people could... horrors... use them to actually fix cars without
taking them to the dealer.
Next thing you know you'll be asking them to make ECM source code public.
--scott

Looks like nobody here saw the discussion during the Congressional
hearings about this.
This issue was raised, and the Toyota reps were promising to send more
laptops to the U.S. Even gave numbers.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hcIYhXE9h4CnUkhDIQrfIC4MLN-wD9E83O9G0

"Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S.
containing the software needed to read the data following a crash."

The AP article makes clear that anyone who wants to can download black
box data from GM, Ford, Chrysler, and Nissan.
That means anybody reading this. I don't know the cost, but the means
is readily available to anyone.
Not true for Toyota, and you need a court order to read Honda black
boxes!
Jesus, anybody is entitled to their opinion, but there is only one set
of facts.
Read the facts, and comment on them. Don't make up our own facts.
That's a general comment, not aimed at you, Scott.

--Vic

Tom Adams

2010-03-05 15:13:53 UTC

Post by Vic Smith

ALL car manufacturers consider this proprietary information. You're lucky
that they even use the standard OBD-II codes and they wouldn't even do that
if the government didn't require them.
ANY information beyond the standard codes is proprietary. Many people have
reverse engineered the data for a lot of cars and so you can get historical
data with many scanners, but the actual interrogation codes are proprietary
because people could... horrors... use them to actually fix cars without
taking them to the dealer.
Next thing you know you'll be asking them to make ECM source code public.
--scott

Looks like nobody here saw the discussion during the Congressional
hearings about this.
This issue was raised, and the Toyota reps were promising to send more
laptops to the U.S. Even gave numbers.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hcIYhXE9h4CnUkhDIQr...
"Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S.
containing the software needed to read the data following a crash."
The AP article makes clear that anyone who wants to can download black
box data from GM, Ford, Chrysler, and Nissan.
That means anybody reading this. I don't know the cost, but the means
is readily available to anyone.
Not true for Toyota, and you need a court order to read Honda black
boxes!
Jesus, anybody is entitled to their opinion, but there is only one set
of facts.
Read the facts, and comment on them. Don't make up our own facts.
That's a general comment, not aimed at you, Scott.
--Vic- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Getting an EDR read from your local accident reconstruction firm cost
about $500 plus travel costs. That is, for certain makes where the
readers are available.

Hachiroku ハチロク

2010-03-05 04:15:49 UTC

Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to
airline "black boxes"

So has everyone else, putz.

Here's a hint for you: don't like Toyotas? DON'T BUY ONE!

ransley

2010-03-05 12:03:43 UTC

Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to
airline "black boxes"

So has everyone else, putz.
Here's a hint for you: don't like Toyotas? DON'T BUY ONE!

Why is he a Puts for telling it like it is," Keepin It Real", Mr "dont
bash toyota in cryin" and no Mr ' this is making me upset- all this
toyota bashing" Dumroku, did you read the article, when my mom got in
an accident with her caddy we got the Black Box printout, Its here on
my computer I scanned in the printouts, would you like me to email to
you what you say we Americans cant get from our US car manufacturers.
It has throttle position, throttle percentage, brake percentage all on
graphs showing time to impact and what all systems were doing, so shut
the Fuck up and quit posting your Pro Toy LIES, bunch of scumbags
those Toyoda folks, I really like the Memo how they saved hundreds of
millons and Toyoda is so stupid he thinks we will believe says he
didnt read it beacuse its in english. haaaaaa haaaaaaa [im dyin
laughin at that stupid statement], I wounder how he passed his classes
at his US university, did he cheat and have a Ghost student passing as
him?. Yea he reallllly needed that translator. HAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA

Hachiroku ハチロク

2010-03-05 17:46:33 UTC

Post by ransley

Post by john
Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
to airline "black boxes"

So has everyone else, putz.
Here's a hint for you: don't like Toyotas? DON'T BUY ONE!

Why is he a Puts for telling it like it is,

He doesn't. Where has he mentioned anything but Toyota, even though a lot
of car companies keep their data to themselves?
He comes, and posts, and then runs away. Basically, a Troll.
Good for you for defending him.

ransley

2010-03-05 12:46:09 UTC

Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to
airline "black boxes"

So has everyone else, putz.
Here's a hint for you: don't like Toyotas? DON'T BUY ONE!

I have a toyota, the last one, even Consumer Reports rated some Ford
products above Tototas camrys long before this scam took place, CR, an
independant magazine has found Toys not getting the highest overall
reliability rating. Now they are proud to get the lowest credibility
rating. Buy a Ford feed 10 US families, Buy a Toyota feed 10 Jap
families. Since they have been so stupid to lie and go the beancounter
rout it wont be toyota for me anymore.

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2010-03-05 13:33:43 UTC

In article

Post by ransley
Buy a Ford feed 10 US families, Buy a Toyota feed 10 Jap
families.

Buy a Ford feed 100 Mexican families, buy a Toyota and feed 10 American
families.

Fixed it for you.

ransley

2010-03-05 14:34:54 UTC

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by ransley
Buy a Ford feed 10 US families, Buy a Toyota feed 10 Jap
families.

Buy a Ford feed 100 Mexican families, buy a Toyota and feed 10 American
families.
Fixed it for you.

Thanks, but at least its the same continent.

C. E. White

2010-03-05 14:51:32 UTC

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by ransley
Buy a Ford feed 10 US families, Buy a Toyota feed 10 Jap
families.

Buy a Ford feed 100 Mexican families, buy a Toyota and feed 10
American
families.

Neither is true. And the fact is, despite assembling some cars in
Mexico, Ford averages the highest domestic content of any company
selling cars in the US.

Let do a quick fact check...The Ford Hermosillo Mexico plant employs
around 2,700 people (probably not all Mexican, but we will ignore
that). The plant produces around 210,000 Fusion, Milans, and MKZ's a
year. Do the math, it takes almost 80 cars to pay the salary of one
worker for the year. So I guess you could say, buy a Ford Fusion, feed
0.0125 Mexican families for a year. Or buy a Ford Fusion and fedd a
Mexican family for 4.6 days. Of course, at the same time you will also
be feeding familes in the US, China, Japan, etc., etc.

BTW, last time I checked, Mexico was consideredd part of North
America. I think Mexicans and Canadians can be considered "Americans."
Of course this brings up the question of what is really the correct
term for residents of the United States of America so as to avoid
being confused with residents o North, Central, and South America.

The US Government has actively encouraged US companies to set up shop
in Mexico. If you don't like the practice, you should write your
Congress person.

Ed

AMuzi

2010-03-05 19:46:41 UTC

Post by C. E. White

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by ransley
Buy a Ford feed 10 US families, Buy a Toyota feed 10 Jap
families.

Buy a Ford feed 100 Mexican families, buy a Toyota and feed 10 American
families.

Neither is true. And the fact is, despite assembling some cars in
Mexico, Ford averages the highest domestic content of any company
selling cars in the US.
Let do a quick fact check...The Ford Hermosillo Mexico plant employs
around 2,700 people (probably not all Mexican, but we will ignore
that). The plant produces around 210,000 Fusion, Milans, and MKZ's a
year. Do the math, it takes almost 80 cars to pay the salary of one
worker for the year. So I guess you could say, buy a Ford Fusion, feed
0.0125 Mexican families for a year. Or buy a Ford Fusion and fedd a
Mexican family for 4.6 days. Of course, at the same time you will also
be feeding familes in the US, China, Japan, etc., etc.
BTW, last time I checked, Mexico was consideredd part of North
America. I think Mexicans and Canadians can be considered "Americans."
Of course this brings up the question of what is really the correct
term for residents of the United States of America so as to avoid
being confused with residents o North, Central, and South America.
The US Government has actively encouraged US companies to set up shop
in Mexico. If you don't like the practice, you should write your
Congress person.

"correct term for residents of the United States of America"

Over in rec.bicycles.tech, Tom Sherman suggests "USAians"

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

jim beam

2010-03-06 15:35:44 UTC

Post by C. E. White

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by ransley
Buy a Ford feed 10 US families, Buy a Toyota feed 10 Jap
families.

Buy a Ford feed 100 Mexican families, buy a Toyota and feed 10 American
families.

Neither is true. And the fact is, despite assembling some cars in
Mexico, Ford averages the highest domestic content of any company
selling cars in the US.
Let do a quick fact check...The Ford Hermosillo Mexico plant employs
around 2,700 people (probably not all Mexican, but we will ignore
that). The plant produces around 210,000 Fusion, Milans, and MKZ's a
year. Do the math, it takes almost 80 cars to pay the salary of one
worker for the year. So I guess you could say, buy a Ford Fusion, feed
0.0125 Mexican families for a year. Or buy a Ford Fusion and fedd a
Mexican family for 4.6 days. Of course, at the same time you will also
be feeding familes in the US, China, Japan, etc., etc.
BTW, last time I checked, Mexico was consideredd part of North
America. I think Mexicans and Canadians can be considered "Americans."
Of course this brings up the question of what is really the correct
term for residents of the United States of America so as to avoid
being confused with residents o North, Central, and South America.
The US Government has actively encouraged US companies to set up shop
in Mexico. If you don't like the practice, you should write your
Congress person.
Ed

straight from detroit, right ed? you're not an astroturfer!

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Elder

2010-03-12 18:50:35 UTC

In article <hmr5ot$96q$***@news.eternal-september.org>, cewhite3
@mindspring.com says...

Post by C. E. White
Of course this brings up the question of what is really the correct
term for residents of the United States of America so as to avoid
being confused with residents o North, Central, and South America.

Considering you heavy mix of races and backgrounds, I think you should
go with USAsians. To upset the white power freaks.

--
Carl Robson
Get cashback on your purchases
Topcashback http://www.TopCashBack.co.uk/skraggy_uk/ref/index.htm
Greasypalm http://www.greasypalm.co.uk/r/?l=1006553

ransley

2010-03-05 13:32:45 UTC

Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to
airline "black boxes"

So has everyone else, putz.
Here's a hint for you: don't like Toyotas? DON'T BUY ONE!

So who pays you, and what does your Japanese Signature really mean,
{ Toyota forever]? [we won at Pearl Harbor] ? . Get on a junk and
float back to your island.

Hachiroku ハチロク

2010-03-05 17:43:41 UTC

Post by john
Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
to airline "black boxes"

So has everyone else, putz.
Here's a hint for you: don't like Toyotas? DON'T BUY ONE!

So who pays you, and what does your Japanese Signature really mean, {
Toyota forever]? [we won at Pearl Harbor] ? . Get on a junk and float
back to your island.

No one pays me. Who pays 'john' to post and run?
Nobody says anyone has to drive a Toyota.
And, pardon me, you ignorance is showing.

C. E. White

2010-03-05 13:03:37 UTC

Post by john
That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake
pedal.
Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices
similar
to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=

Toyota has agreed to make the equipment needed to read the black box
data available. From
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100225/CARNEWS/100229931 :

"Reacting to criticism that data from black-box crash recorders in its
vehicles can be accessed only by the company, Toyota Motor Corp. is
moving to ship hundreds of data-decoding machines to the United States
and make them commercially available to help diagnose vehicle
problems."

Ed

jim beam

2010-03-06 14:48:29 UTC

Post by C. E. White

Post by john
That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices
similar
to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=

Toyota has agreed to make the equipment needed to read the black box
data available. From
"Reacting to criticism that data from black-box crash recorders in its
vehicles can be accessed only by the company, Toyota Motor Corp. is
moving to ship hundreds of data-decoding machines to the United States
and make them commercially available to help diagnose vehicle
problems."
Ed

astroturfer ed trying to look like he's a concerned citizen.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Tom Adams

2010-03-05 15:18:21 UTC

Post by john
That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
Full article at:http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-12944...

Toyota's EDRs probably are lousy. The main reason for car makers
putting in an EDR in the first place was for accident analysis to
avoid liability and sort our fact from fiction. The fact that Toyota
has had trouble doing this for the accelerator problem is evidence of
lack of useful data in the EDR. Its not like Toyota can't read the
black box in their own cars.

jim beam

2010-03-06 14:47:31 UTC

Post by Tom Adams

Post by john
That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
Full article at:http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-12944...

exactly.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

fred

2010-03-07 22:49:54 UTC