Cost of 10K oil change? $175 everywhere?

[mcbrue]

Ahhhhh ! You just have to love the Japanese Luxury car! Have to change
oil every 5000 miles and NOT use good artificial oil, use the inferior
dino oil. Go there to the dealership and sit there because they do not
provide loaner cars nor transport to somewhere. And then pay $175
for the oil, an inferior car wash, tire rotation, inspection of a lot
of little things, and filling the fluids and tires. I did have them
check the grabby brakes which also grind when cold and starting out,
and they were fine and functioning normaly. The squeaky noise in the
trunk opening thing that started about 5200 miles is a faulty trunk
opening motor. Wow! Such a delight! I am thinking maybe American cars
are better than this and cost half as much, or maybe go back to the
Mercedes that costs half again as much but breaks down every 3 years
and strands the proud owners by the side of the road. And the Koyoto
accords?? Dealer says DO NOT use ethanol gas in the 06 LS430.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by mcbrue
Ahhhhh ! You just have to love the Japanese Luxury car! Have to change
oil every 5000 miles and NOT use good artificial oil, use the inferior
dino oil.

Says who?

Post by mcbrue
Go there to the dealership and sit there because they do not
provide loaner cars nor transport to somewhere. And then pay $175
for the oil, an inferior car wash, tire rotation, inspection of a lot
of little things, and filling the fluids and tires.

Why would you do that?

Why would you go to the dealership for that?

[St. John Smythe]

Post by mcbrue
Ahhhhh ! You just have to love the Japanese Luxury car! Have to change
oil every 5000 miles and NOT use good artificial oil, use the inferior
dino oil.

You might be surprised to find where synthetic oil comes from.

[The Visitor]

mcbrue wrote:

sit there because they do not

Post by mcbrue
provide loaner cars nor transport to somewhere.

My dealership does. Also free valet service. The guy leaves you with the
loaner. No charge. Saves me a 50 minute drive.

[D.D. Palmer]

My dealer charges about $75 to change the oil on my 2004 LS430. But I rarely
use the dealer. Lots of local shops that do the job for half that just fine.
Avoid the dealer hype. Do the basic maintenance at a reasonable local shop
and keep on truckin'....

Post by mcbrue
sit there because they do not

Post by mcbrue
provide loaner cars nor transport to somewhere.

My dealership does. Also free valet service. The guy leaves you with the
loaner. No charge. Saves me a 50 minute drive.

[Max]

Post by mcbrue
Ahhhhh ! You just have to love the Japanese Luxury car! Have to change
oil every 5000 miles and NOT use good artificial oil, use the inferior
dino oil. Go there to the dealership and sit there because they do not
provide loaner cars nor transport to somewhere. And then pay $175
for the oil, an inferior car wash, tire rotation, inspection of a lot
of little things, and filling the fluids and tires. I did have them
check the grabby brakes which also grind when cold and starting out,
and they were fine and functioning normaly. The squeaky noise in the
trunk opening thing that started about 5200 miles is a faulty trunk
opening motor. Wow! Such a delight! I am thinking maybe American cars
are better than this and cost half as much, or maybe go back to the
Mercedes that costs half again as much but breaks down every 3 years
and strands the proud owners by the side of the road. And the Koyoto
accords?? Dealer says DO NOT use ethanol gas in the 06 LS430.

why would anyone be so retarded as to go to the dealership for a
simple oil change? $175 will will do at least 3 changes at a Grease
Monkey with Mobil 1.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Max
$175 will will do at least 3 changes at a Grease
Monkey with Mobil 1.

$175 would get you 3 oil changes with Mobil 1 at the neighborhood
service station, where they have a reputation and give a damn.

You'd also earn quite a bit of goodwill with that business.

[GIga]

WHEN are you going to sell your car and buy ANYTHING else so that you leave
this newsgroup and stop ANNOYING those of us who are interested in
meaningful information exchange on the subject of Lexus automobiles? I
simply don't understand why you think that your posting achieves anything
useful other than satisfying your insipid desire for attention?

Jeez.

Post by mcbrue
Ahhhhh ! You just have to love the Japanese Luxury car! Have to change
oil every 5000 miles and NOT use good artificial oil, use the inferior
dino oil. Go there to the dealership and sit there because they do not
provide loaner cars nor transport to somewhere. And then pay $175
for the oil, an inferior car wash, tire rotation, inspection of a lot
of little things, and filling the fluids and tires. I did have them
check the grabby brakes which also grind when cold and starting out,
and they were fine and functioning normaly. The squeaky noise in the
trunk opening thing that started about 5200 miles is a faulty trunk
opening motor. Wow! Such a delight! I am thinking maybe American cars
are better than this and cost half as much, or maybe go back to the
Mercedes that costs half again as much but breaks down every 3 years
and strands the proud owners by the side of the road. And the Koyoto
accords?? Dealer says DO NOT use ethanol gas in the 06 LS430.

[Steve Larson]

My oil changes at an Atlanta Lexus dealership were only like $25 or $30.
Tire rotation/balancing and wheel alignment were crazy-priced at like $80
each, which is what probably inflated your bill. You have to remember that
Lexus is a luxury brand, and this level of service is the default offering
for their actual customer base, made up largely of financially secure
individuals. The service schedule is a little overkill, but I would have no
problem keeping up with it if I was the target wealthy customer. Being more
frugle, I choose to do my service either myself or at the local Toyota
dealership. You have to use common sense to do what makes sense for you.
But it doesn't seem sensical to gripe about the higher level of service
provided by the Lexus dealer network. And as far as Kyoto accords, once you
can convince "W" to sign on to Kyoto, then perhaps those standards will be
applied to automobiles sold in the US. Why would Lexus/Toyota spend the
money to apply arbitrary fuel/emmissions standards to their fleet when their
biggest consumer market (America) doesn't ask for it, let alone have any
positive environmental positions?

Post by mcbrue
Ahhhhh ! You just have to love the Japanese Luxury car! Have to change
oil every 5000 miles and NOT use good artificial oil, use the inferior
dino oil. Go there to the dealership and sit there because they do not
provide loaner cars nor transport to somewhere. And then pay $175
for the oil, an inferior car wash, tire rotation, inspection of a lot
of little things, and filling the fluids and tires. I did have them
check the grabby brakes which also grind when cold and starting out,
and they were fine and functioning normaly. The squeaky noise in the
trunk opening thing that started about 5200 miles is a faulty trunk
opening motor. Wow! Such a delight! I am thinking maybe American cars
are better than this and cost half as much, or maybe go back to the
Mercedes that costs half again as much but breaks down every 3 years
and strands the proud owners by the side of the road. And the Koyoto
accords?? Dealer says DO NOT use ethanol gas in the 06 LS430.

[V]

Being more frugle, I choose to do my service either myself or at the local Toyota dealership.

My Toyota dealer did not know the following about my 2000 ES300 during
the 60K service-

Uses Iridium plugs (they thought it uses platinum plugs)
Has a cabin air filter (they couldn't find one behind the glove
compartment, so they thought it wasn't equipped with one)

The Toyota dealer baited me with a $500 estimate, and added another
$400+ (after work commenced) in additional "recommended" services
+costs for the 60K service.

The Lexus dealership was upfront about the price of the 60K service (a
little under $1000).
And the Lexus dealership 60K service also includes belts replacement,
new wiper blades and cabin air filter replacement in the 60K service,
which the Toyota dealership 60K service did not include.

YMMV.

[Max]

Post by V

Being more frugle, I choose to do my service either myself or at the local Toyota dealership.

My Toyota dealer did not know the following about my 2000 ES300 during
the 60K service-
Uses Iridium plugs (they thought it uses platinum plugs)
Has a cabin air filter (they couldn't find one behind the glove
compartment, so they thought it wasn't equipped with one)
The Toyota dealer baited me with a $500 estimate, and added another
$400+ (after work commenced) in additional "recommended" services
+costs for the 60K service.
The Lexus dealership was upfront about the price of the 60K service (a
little under $1000).
And the Lexus dealership 60K service also includes belts replacement,
new wiper blades and cabin air filter replacement in the 60K service,
which the Toyota dealership 60K service did not include.
YMMV.

yeesh. The cabin filter can be bought off ebay for $10.
Wiper blades are another $20 at your local auto store.
Oil change at a local service station $45
Service still will change the belts for $100 (including the belt).

Total cost outside the dealer - <$200

Man. I oughta open up a Lexus maintenace dealership, charge half the
price and make a fortune.

[V]

Post by Max
yeesh. The cabin filter can be bought off ebay for $10.
Wiper blades are another $20 at your local auto store.
Oil change at a local service station $45
Service still will change the belts for $100 (including the belt).
Total cost outside the dealer - <$200
Man. I oughta open up a Lexus maintenace dealership, charge half the
price and make a fortune.

I could have saved some $$$ by going to someone who _might_ have
messed up my car.
I mean, even a Toyota-trained mechanic couldn't find the cabin air
filter in the ES300!

Here's a partial breakdown:
Radiator flush (not drain and fill), with Toyota's pink, long-life
coolant (not the common green coolant): $100
Transmission flush (not drain and fill) with Toyota Type-T
transmission fluid: $130
Power Steering Flush: $100
Fuel-induction service (includes throttle-body cleaning): $100
Engine oil change: $25
Engine air filter replacement: $???
Brake System Flush (and clean brake components, etc): $120
Rear differential oil change: $???
Vehicle inspection, rotate tires, test-drive, etc.: $???

What I did not get:
Serpentine Belt replacement: $???
Cabin air filter replacement: $???
Wiper blade replacement: $???

Nice Lexus: priceless (OK, not more than the Blue Book value)

[jdoe]

Post by V

Post by Max
yeesh. The cabin filter can be bought off ebay for $10.
Wiper blades are another $20 at your local auto store.
Oil change at a local service station $45
Service still will change the belts for $100 (including the belt).
Total cost outside the dealer - <$200
Man. I oughta open up a Lexus maintenace dealership, charge half the
price and make a fortune.

I could have saved some $$$ by going to someone who _might_ have
messed up my car.
I mean, even a Toyota-trained mechanic couldn't find the cabin air
filter in the ES300!

that begs the question, why would anyone bring their lexus to a toyota
shop, except in an emergency situation?

[V]

Post by jdoe
that begs the question, why would anyone bring their lexus to a toyota
shop, except in an emergency situation?

The ES300 is basically a luxurious Camry.
One would imagine a Toyota-trained mechanic would know more about this
car.
I usually take my Lexus to the Toyota dealer for an oil change: $25
(and much faster) vs $55.
In retrospect, considering what I paid to the Toyota dealer for this
major service, I should have gone to Lexus instead.

[jdoe]

Post by V

Post by jdoe
that begs the question, why would anyone bring their lexus to a toyota
shop, except in an emergency situation?

The ES300 is basically a luxurious Camry.

basically is one thing, it is not an exact copy, therefore you could
not expect a toyota dealership to grasp the ins and outs of a lexus.
My lexus has parts marked toyota, but that does not make it one

[Steve Larson]

The ES300 is basically the same car as the Camry, and it shares most of the
same parts. That's by design for obvious reasons, it simplifies fleet
design for Toyota across the brands. There are many different Toyota and
Lexus dealerships out there, and the quality among the Toyota dealerships
will likely vary more than Lexus. But again, Lexus is a luxury brand. If
you want the entire luxury experience, then by all means, do all the service
at Lexus and enjoy the experience. But I disagree with any notion that
doing the service at a Toyota dealership will necessarily result in any sort
of inferior quality work. In my case, I have had the same service writer
for 13 years at the Toyota dealership, and I trust his guidance. On one
income while my wife stays at home with the little one, I'm not going for
the luxury experience with my ES300 by paying large service bills at Lexus.
Further, my '02 ES300 has not exactly been the luxury product, with
transmission problems, shifter relay problem, A/C relay problem, rattling
noises throughout the cabin, and 2 in-dash 6-CD changers broken. Just as my
experience with a bug-ridden car isn't necessarily indicative of others'
experience, others' negative experience doing service at the Toyota
dealership doesn't match my experience. I realize any car can be a lemon, I
believe a case can be made to include mine in the citrus family. However, I
would probably buy another Lexus, likely an IS series with manual
transmission, which I think would be the perfect blend of features and
control for me.

Post by jdoe

Post by V

Post by jdoe
that begs the question, why would anyone bring their lexus to a toyota
shop, except in an emergency situation?

The ES300 is basically a luxurious Camry.

basically is one thing, it is not an exact copy, therefore you could
not expect a toyota dealership to grasp the ins and outs of a lexus.
My lexus has parts marked toyota, but that does not make it one

[jdoe]

Post by Steve Larson
The ES300 is basically the same car as the Camry, and it shares most of the
same parts.

there's the operative part, what do you do when something that isn't
part of the "most" goes wrong and you're at the toyota shop.
Maybe you didn't think of the total costs of a higher end car like a
lexus, higher service costs are part of the deal

[Steve Larson]

That's a pretty elitist slant, don't you think? After all, it's just a car.
And when you say "higher end", it's higher end marketing and merchandising,
not necessarily higher end quality anymore. Are you saying I shouldn't own
a Lexus because I don't do all my service at a Lexus dealership? That's
ludicrous. Most of the difference is just cosmetic. The Toyota counterpart
has plastic "wood" and less amenities. Bear in mind that I only paid like
$32k for my ES300. I can go out and buy a loaded Camry for the same money,
so I'm not sure how the "higher end" principle applies, especially
considering Lexus is still just a Toyota underneath the hood. Many of the
expensive parts are shared engine and electrical system parts and are the
same exact parts. To your question, what do I do when something
Lexus-specific goes wrong? Well, I don't sit there and drool and lament my
circumstance, I make the best choice for the situation. For instance, Lexus
wants $700 to replace my broken CD changer with a refurb. They say it's
$540 for the part and the rest is their service fee to "check that the unit
is actually broken and remove it". I asked if I could remove it myself,
which I have done several times to install custom accessories inside the
dash. That's when they said "no, you have to pay for the service, that's
just the way the program is set up." So I found a place that does the work
refurbing these Pioneer units for Lexus dealerships, and they want $270 to
do the repair. I'm not sure my hands-on approach with maintaining my car is
such a bad approach. All of my disappointment has been with the quality
control of the failed components and with the buggy transmission
performance. All that leads me to believe that the concept of "higher end"
should not be applied to my 2002 ES300. Again, it's just a car, nothing
special.

Post by jdoe

Post by Steve Larson
The ES300 is basically the same car as the Camry, and it shares most of the
same parts.

there's the operative part, what do you do when something that isn't
part of the "most" goes wrong and you're at the toyota shop.
Maybe you didn't think of the total costs of a higher end car like a
lexus, higher service costs are part of the deal

["" <Curtis Newton>]

Post by Steve Larson
That's a pretty elitist slant, don't you think? After all, it's just a car.
And when you say "higher end", it's higher end marketing and merchandising,
not necessarily higher end quality anymore. Are you saying I shouldn't own
a Lexus because I don't do all my service at a Lexus dealership?

I take our 04 RX330 to a independent shop that specializes in
Toyota/Lexus. Two of the techs came from a major Toyota dealership
and two came from a Lexus chain.

To compare prices, the 60K maintenance interval at Lexus was $900+,
Toyota was $650, and at the independent, it was $425. Regardless of
if we are driving "a high end" vehicle, that is no reason to pay extra
for routine maintenance items.

[Max]

Post by "" <Curtis Newton>

Post by Steve Larson
That's a pretty elitist slant, don't you think? After all, it's just a car.
And when you say "higher end", it's higher end marketing and merchandising,
not necessarily higher end quality anymore. Are you saying I shouldn't own
a Lexus because I don't do all my service at a Lexus dealership?

I take our 04 RX330 to a independent shop that specializes in
Toyota/Lexus. Two of the techs came from a major Toyota dealership
and two came from a Lexus chain.
To compare prices, the 60K maintenance interval at Lexus was $900+,
Toyota was $650, and at the independent, it was $425. Regardless of
if we are driving "a high end" vehicle, that is no reason to pay extra
for routine maintenance items.

the independent that I takes my cars to have better paid and equally
as trained and qualified techs as any in any dealership. AND, they're
cheaper. Substantially cheaper than the dealer.

Also, a dealer tech doesn't necessarily always know what they're
doing. They're more used to working on cars under warranty, where
they just swap out numerous parts until they fix the problem.

Indy's are usually paid by the car owner so it's much more important
for their continued succsss to get the job done right at the cheapest
price.

I know several dealership techs that got their training at the
dealership then left to work for an indy for more pay.

[V]

Post by "" <Curtis Newton>
I take our 04 RX330 to a independent shop that specializes in
Toyota/Lexus. Two of the techs came from a major Toyota dealership
and two came from a Lexus chain.
To compare prices, the 60K maintenance interval at Lexus was $900+,
Toyota was $650, and at the independent, it was $425.

But do they do precisely the same things for their 60K service?
e.g. Lexus inlcudes a transmission flush.
Toyota inlcudes a drain and fill only; they recommend a flush, and you
have to pay more for it if you want it done.

An independent might say the green coolant will do just as well as
Toyota's pink coolant, because they don't stock the pink stuff.

["" <Curtis Newton>]

Post by V

Post by "" <Curtis Newton>
I take our 04 RX330 to a independent shop that specializes in
Toyota/Lexus. Two of the techs came from a major Toyota dealership
and two came from a Lexus chain.
To compare prices, the 60K maintenance interval at Lexus was $900+,
Toyota was $650, and at the independent, it was $425.

But do they do precisely the same things for their 60K service?
e.g. Lexus inlcudes a transmission flush.
Toyota inlcudes a drain and fill only; they recommend a flush, and you
have to pay more for it if you want it done.
An independent might say the green coolant will do just as well as
Toyota's pink coolant, because they don't stock the pink stuff.

In my opinion, a good independent will only use OEM Toyota parts. So,
the place I take our RX to does include the transmission flush using
Type-IV fluid, as well as red Toyota coolant, Denso air/cabin filter,
Toyota oil filter, etc.

The one thing I didn't get was a car wash that Lexus offers. But,
saving a bit over $450 was worth it.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by V

Post by "" <Curtis Newton>
To compare prices, the 60K maintenance interval at Lexus was $900+,
Toyota was $650, and at the independent, it was $425.

But do they do precisely the same things for their 60K service?
e.g. Lexus inlcudes a transmission flush.
Toyota inlcudes a drain and fill only; they recommend a flush, and you
have to pay more for it if you want it done.

This is not a "Lexus" vs. "Toyota" thing; each dealer is an INDEPENDENT
BUSINESSMAN. There is no such thing as "Lexus" or "Toyota" service.

Please notice that each dealership, regardless of its affiliation, sets
up its own "service schedules"--which are usually unrelated to what's in
the owner's manual, and which are usually directly related to how much
money they think they can get you to pay when you come in the door.

The owner's manual is the place to go to figure out what your car
needs--not the dealership.

If a Toyota owner's manual specifies a transmission flush, then the
owner should be able to go to the dealership service department and ask
for that service. The Toyota service manual will specify the procedure.

Are you saying that a Toyota dealership near you refuses to do the
service that (a) you ask for, and for which (b) they have the
instructions and tools?

Post by V
e.g. Lexus inlcudes a transmission flush.
Toyota inlcudes a drain and fill only; they recommend a flush, and you
have to pay more for it if you want it done.

Please let me more correctly restate what you said:

"The local Lexus dealer goes ahead and does a transmission flush without
asking you, and goes ahead and charges for it. The local Toyota dealer
does a fluid change only, but the service writer will 'recommend' a
flush and ask if you want it."

Frankly, the Lexus dealer is ripping off its customers. WHAT DOES THE
OWNER'S MANUAL SAY? And then what does the service manual say?

I can guarantee that under no circumstances does Toyota recommend or
specify a "transmission flush". They recommend a drain and
fill--possibly multiple times, if you want to exchange a lot of the
fluid. But a flush? No.

They don't recommend it for their Toyota models, and they don't
recommend it for their Lexus models.

You were suckered in by the Lexus dealer doing unnecessary (and possibly
damaging) work, and assumed that such work is "required" simply because
"well, the Lexus dealer said it was".

I have a 94 Lexus. I got it 3+ years ago with 125K on the clock. The
previous owner had done a transmission "flush" a few months before I got
it, and I ended up getting it with--ready for this?--a ruined
transmission. I rebuilt the transmission, and here it is at 176K miles
and going strong.

You do the math.

Honda recommends against a flush, and specifies multiple drain/fill
iterations to replace much of the fluid if that's your goal. Find out
what Toyota recommends on its cars, and you'll find the same.

Your Lexus dealer is ripping you off, and you believed him.

["" <Curtis Newton>]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I can guarantee that under no circumstances does Toyota recommend or
specify a "transmission flush". They recommend a drain and
fill--possibly multiple times, if you want to exchange a lot of the
fluid. But a flush? No.
They don't recommend it for their Toyota models, and they don't
recommend it for their Lexus models.

I completely understand/agree with the statement not to flush a
transmission if it hasn't been done in a long time; we just did a
drain/fill on our 88 Camry and at 320,000 miles, the transmission is
still strong. Same thing with our ES300.

However, on the RX family, the transmission fluid sure seems to get
stressed, so I did the fluid flush.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by "" <Curtis Newton>
However, on the RX family, the transmission fluid sure seems to get
stressed, so I did the fluid flush.

How do you know it gets "stressed"?

What does the owner's manual say? What does the service manual specify
as a procedure for replacing the fluid? Does it specify a "flush" under
any circumstances?

["" <Curtis Newton>]

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:52:16 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by "" <Curtis Newton>
However, on the RX family, the transmission fluid sure seems to get
stressed, so I did the fluid flush.

How do you know it gets "stressed"?
What does the owner's manual say? What does the service manual specify
as a procedure for replacing the fluid? Does it specify a "flush" under
any circumstances?

Used oil analysis and also the RX forum. Head over to the Lexus RX
forum for some light reading on problems with certain model year RX300
transmissions. Regular changes seem to prevent or at least delay the
problem.

As for your other question, of course the owner's manual doesn't say
anything about a flush or for that matter a change.

In fact, the owner's manual for our 2004 RX330 says "lifetime fluid".
But, in this case, Lexus and I have a different version of "lifetime".
They view lifetime as long as the transmission lasts; I view lifetime
in a much longer sense.

As usual, YMMV.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by "" <Curtis Newton>

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
What does the owner's manual say? What does the service manual specify
as a procedure for replacing the fluid? Does it specify a "flush" under
any circumstances?

Used oil analysis and also the RX forum. Head over to the Lexus RX
forum for some light reading on problems with certain model year RX300
transmissions. Regular changes seem to prevent or at least delay the
problem.
As for your other question, of course the owner's manual doesn't say
anything about a flush or for that matter a change.

So what does the service manual say when a complete fluid change is
required? How do the Toyota engineers want you to do it? Do they
specify a flush of any kind? What's their procedure?

I'm sure this is all documented somewhere in the RX forum, right? The
same folks who are "sure" that the trans fluid gets "stressed", more so
than the trans fluid in the Camry/ES on which the RX station wagon is
built.

Post by "" <Curtis Newton>
In fact, the owner's manual for our 2004 RX330 says "lifetime fluid".
But, in this case, Lexus and I have a different version of "lifetime".
They view lifetime as long as the transmission lasts; I view lifetime
in a much longer sense.

But certainly the Toyota service manual addresses this, too, right?

Or don't you have a service manual in hand?

[V]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
This is not a "Lexus" vs. "Toyota" thing; each dealer is an INDEPENDENT
BUSINESSMAN. There is no such thing as "Lexus" or "Toyota" service.

Of course there is, as others here have noted.
You pay a premium/more at Lexus, and you get a free car wash :), and I
personally got a brand new (less than 300 miles) RX series SUV as a
free loaner car when I left my ES 300 there for an oil change sometime
ago.
And some other subtleties as anyone who has taken their Lexus to a
Lexus dealership will know.
Not worth the $30 more for a regular oil change than at Toyota, IMHO
(maybe they thought I'd sell my ES and buy a new RX?), but why don't
you try getting a brand new loaner Toyota Highlander from ANY Toyota
dealer when you drop off a 5 year old Camry for an oil change?

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The owner's manual is the place to go to figure out what your car
needs--not the dealership.

You asked for it. Sorry if this sounds like an ad for the Lexus
dealership.
On page 219 of the 2000 Lexus Owner's Manual (ES 300), it states:

"Lexus technicians are well-trained specialists and are kept up to
date with the latest service information through technical bulletins,
service tips, and in-dealership training programs. They are well
informed about the operation of all the systems on your vehicle.

You can be confident that your Lexus dealer's service department
performs the best job to meet the maintenance requirements of your
vehicle."

So what does it say in your 94 Lexus owner's manual? :)
And how do independent mechanics keep up with all these changes?

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I can guarantee that under no circumstances does Toyota recommend or
specify a "transmission flush". They recommend a drain and
fill--possibly multiple times, if you want to exchange a lot of the
fluid. But a flush? No.
They don't recommend it for their Toyota models, and they don't
recommend it for their Lexus models.
You were suckered in by the Lexus dealer doing unnecessary (and possibly
damaging) work, and assumed that such work is "required" simply because
"well, the Lexus dealer said it was".

I was baited and switched by the Toyota dealership.
If "Toyota" doesn't recommend a flush, why did a service writer
(presumably trained by Toyota) wearing a Toyota outfit at a Toyota
dealership recommend the flush (after service began), especially if,
as you claim, would be damaging to my car?
And from what I hear, a common transmission fluid change only changes
a small percentage of the total transmission fluid.

[Max]

Post by V

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
This is not a "Lexus" vs. "Toyota" thing; each dealer is an INDEPENDENT
BUSINESSMAN. There is no such thing as "Lexus" or "Toyota" service.

Of course there is, as others here have noted.
You pay a premium/more at Lexus, and you get a free car wash :), and I
personally got a brand new (less than 300 miles) RX series SUV as a
free loaner car when I left my ES 300 there for an oil change sometime
ago.
And some other subtleties as anyone who has taken their Lexus to a
Lexus dealership will know.
Not worth the $30 more for a regular oil change than at Toyota, IMHO
(maybe they thought I'd sell my ES and buy a new RX?), but why don't
you try getting a brand new loaner Toyota Highlander from ANY Toyota
dealer when you drop off a 5 year old Camry for an oil change?

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The owner's manual is the place to go to figure out what your car
needs--not the dealership.

You asked for it. Sorry if this sounds like an ad for the Lexus
dealership.
"Lexus technicians are well-trained specialists and are kept up to
date with the latest service information through technical bulletins,
service tips, and in-dealership training programs. They are well
informed about the operation of all the systems on your vehicle.
You can be confident that your Lexus dealer's service department
performs the best job to meet the maintenance requirements of your
vehicle."

..well of COURSE it's going to say that. It's good business to
promote their dealerships.

Post by V
So what does it say in your 94 Lexus owner's manual? :)
And how do independent mechanics keep up with all these changes?

..the same way that dealerships do..through Alldata and service
bulletins.

Post by V

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I can guarantee that under no circumstances does Toyota recommend or
specify a "transmission flush". They recommend a drain and
fill--possibly multiple times, if you want to exchange a lot of the
fluid. But a flush? No.
They don't recommend it for their Toyota models, and they don't
recommend it for their Lexus models.
You were suckered in by the Lexus dealer doing unnecessary (and possibly
damaging) work, and assumed that such work is "required" simply because
"well, the Lexus dealer said it was".

I was baited and switched by the Toyota dealership.
If "Toyota" doesn't recommend a flush, why did a service writer
(presumably trained by Toyota) wearing a Toyota outfit at a Toyota
dealership recommend the flush (after service began), especially if,
as you claim, would be damaging to my car?

..because (a) it makes them a LOT more money and (b) you'll believe
anything they tell you.

Post by V
And from what I hear, a common transmission fluid change only changes
a small percentage of the total transmission fluid.

..that's not true either. About 80% of the fluid is replaced. Most
of the time, replacing fluid is all you need to do. Depending on how
long it's been since it's last flush, flushing can loosen parts and
significantly shorten the life of your transmission.

Dealerships make a LOT of money in their service department. They're
hoping you don't argue with with they recommend. Actually, they're
banking most of their business on you not argueing what they tell you.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by V

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The owner's manual is the place to go to figure out what your car
needs--not the dealership.

You asked for it. Sorry if this sounds like an ad for the Lexus
dealership.
"Lexus technicians are well-trained specialists and are kept up to
date with the latest service information through technical bulletins,
service tips, and in-dealership training programs. They are well
informed about the operation of all the systems on your vehicle.
You can be confident that your Lexus dealer's service department
performs the best job to meet the maintenance requirements of your
vehicle."
So what does it say in your 94 Lexus owner's manual? :)
And how do independent mechanics keep up with all these changes?

The owner's manual has a MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE in it. For maintenance,
the owner's manual is the first--and usually last--place one looks.
When one goes into a shop and they talk about how the 5000 mile
maintenance includes this, that, and the other, and it totals up to
$300, all one has to do is look in one's owner's manual and ask for
specifically THOSE LISTED services to be done.

The dealership would love for you to take their advice, as an
independent businessman, and give them scads of your money. But that
doesn't mean the independent businessman dealership speaks for Lexus on
those matters. The dealership speaks for himself--period.

So there is no "Lexus service" and there is no "Toyota service". Toyota
does not provide service. Shoot, Toyota does not sell cars to
individuals. The independent businessman dealership does those things.

As for how does an indy mechanic keep up with all the changes--well, how
does anyone in any technical field keep up with changes? I might
subscribe to some Microsoft program that gives me training and
materials, or I might subscribe to a third-party program that gives me
the equivalent. It's no big deal. Indy service places get all kinds of
information about Toyotas and Lexuses that are out on the market.

Post by V

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
You were suckered in by the Lexus dealer doing unnecessary (and possibly
damaging) work, and assumed that such work is "required" simply because
"well, the Lexus dealer said it was".

I was baited and switched by the Toyota dealership.
If "Toyota" doesn't recommend a flush, why did a service writer
(presumably trained by Toyota) wearing a Toyota outfit at a Toyota
dealership recommend the flush (after service began), especially if,
as you claim, would be damaging to my car?

Jesus Christ, man. Grow up. Why did he recommend it? Because it puts
money into his pocket, that's why! Did you know that service writers
are commissioned salespeople? Paid by the dollars they can talk you
into pulling out of your wallet and giving to the service cashier?

Are you sitting here and continuing to tell us that the dealership is
ALWAYS looking out for its customers and is ALWAYS specifying exactly
and only what the manufacturer puts down in its service manuals???

The dealership is an independent businessman, who wants to make money.
If he can convince you that you need new blinker fluid, and get you to
pay $25 for it, he will.

I challenge you to show us your dealership service invoices over the
last 5 years. We will show you just how much money you threw down the
drain because you thought the dealership was looking out for you and was
delivering only services that are in the Toyota service manuals.

Post by V
And from what I hear, a common transmission fluid change only changes
a small percentage of the total transmission fluid.

Did you even READ what I said? A simple trans fluid change does change
only a small percentage of the fluid; that's why when a fuller exchange
is required, the procedure is multiple iterations of the drain/fill
procedure. Drain, fill, drive, drain, fill, drive, drain, fill, drive.
You will never exchange all the fluid, but with several cycles you'll
refresh it with plenty of fresh fluid.

At no time does Toyota recommend a transmission "flush". Can you show
us a Toyota service manual (not Haines or Chilton or Joe-Bob's) that
specifies a flush, complete with flushing instructions?


You need to grow up and get a sense of the world around you. It's not a
pretty place, and you're on your own. The guy on the other side of the
service desk is there to serve himself, not you.

[V]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The owner's manual has a MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE in it. For maintenance,
the owner's manual is the first--and usually last--place one looks.
When one goes into a shop and they talk about how the 5000 mile
maintenance includes this, that, and the other, and it totals up to
$300, all one has to do is look in one's owner's manual and ask for
specifically THOSE LISTED services to be done.
[...]
Jesus Christ, man. Grow up. Why did he recommend it? Because it puts
money into his pocket, that's why! Did you know that service writers
are commissioned salespeople? Paid by the dollars they can talk you
into pulling out of your wallet and giving to the service cashier?

The Owners Manual is not the Gospel According To Toyota.
The Maintenance Schedule there is a general guideline for most
vehicles.
You would rather trust the pages of that book than a competent
mechanic who may have
evidence to suggest that coolant has leaked into your engine oil, and
some other routine may be required?
Or that metallic chunks are floating around in your transmission
fluid?
Or that the transmission fluid appears badly burnt?

The 3 times drain-fill-drive cycle could end up costing more and still
leave more contaminants in the transmission than a flush.
And the owner's manual says nothing abouth the sludge/oil-gelling
problems occuring in many 1997 - 2001 Toyota vehicles too.

Somewhere out there there are people who second-guess medical doctors
the same way, and rely on healthcare phamplets only :)
But the mdical community is smart enough to include a disclaimer in
their phamplets, referring a patient to their doctor as the final
authority for analysis/treatment; somthing the automobile community
here passes off as Lexus Marketing Hype in the Lexus owners manual.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by V

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Jesus Christ, man. Grow up. Why did he recommend it? Because it puts
money into his pocket, that's why! Did you know that service writers
are commissioned salespeople? Paid by the dollars they can talk you
into pulling out of your wallet and giving to the service cashier?

The Owners Manual is not the Gospel According To Toyota.
The Maintenance Schedule there is a general guideline for most
vehicles.
You would rather trust the pages of that book than a competent
mechanic who may have
evidence to suggest that coolant has leaked into your engine oil, and
some other routine may be required?

He wasn't talking about a competent mechanic.

He was talking about the service writer at the Lexus dealership, who
sold him--without his asking--a service that Toyota doesn't recommend.

I will always take the word of a competent mechanic. That's one reason
I buy Hondas; I know two extremely competent Honda mechanics, and I
don't have to worry.

Post by V
Or that metallic chunks are floating around in your transmission
fluid?
Or that the transmission fluid appears badly burnt?

Ever been to a Jiffy Lube? They'll tell you ALL KINDS of things.

The same dealership that employs my long-time (20 years) competent
mechanics, also employs a shyster mechanic. Why they let him get away
with his stuff, I don't know. But he rips people off BIG time. He'll
flat-out lie to them.

Post by V
The 3 times drain-fill-drive cycle could end up costing more and still
leave more contaminants in the transmission than a flush.

And the flush will damage your transmission.

Gee, you know more than the Honda engineers who designed the
transmission, right?

["" <Curtis Newton>]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by V
The 3 times drain-fill-drive cycle could end up costing more and still
leave more contaminants in the transmission than a flush.

And the flush will damage your transmission.

That is the kind of servicethat will continue to generate $$$ for the
dealership for sure. Essentially, offering a service that "will
damage your transmission" and then charge the customer to put in a
rebuilt unit when they come back.

[Steve Larson]

In my opinion, when you tout as fact the marketing phrases from the Lexus
owners manual, you're just asking to get fragged here...

Post by V

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
This is not a "Lexus" vs. "Toyota" thing; each dealer is an INDEPENDENT
BUSINESSMAN. There is no such thing as "Lexus" or "Toyota" service.

Of course there is, as others here have noted.
You pay a premium/more at Lexus, and you get a free car wash :), and I
personally got a brand new (less than 300 miles) RX series SUV as a
free loaner car when I left my ES 300 there for an oil change sometime
ago.
And some other subtleties as anyone who has taken their Lexus to a
Lexus dealership will know.
Not worth the $30 more for a regular oil change than at Toyota, IMHO
(maybe they thought I'd sell my ES and buy a new RX?), but why don't
you try getting a brand new loaner Toyota Highlander from ANY Toyota
dealer when you drop off a 5 year old Camry for an oil change?

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The owner's manual is the place to go to figure out what your car
needs--not the dealership.

You asked for it. Sorry if this sounds like an ad for the Lexus
dealership.
"Lexus technicians are well-trained specialists and are kept up to
date with the latest service information through technical bulletins,
service tips, and in-dealership training programs. They are well
informed about the operation of all the systems on your vehicle.
You can be confident that your Lexus dealer's service department
performs the best job to meet the maintenance requirements of your
vehicle."
So what does it say in your 94 Lexus owner's manual? :)
And how do independent mechanics keep up with all these changes?

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I can guarantee that under no circumstances does Toyota recommend or
specify a "transmission flush". They recommend a drain and
fill--possibly multiple times, if you want to exchange a lot of the
fluid. But a flush? No.
They don't recommend it for their Toyota models, and they don't
recommend it for their Lexus models.
You were suckered in by the Lexus dealer doing unnecessary (and possibly
damaging) work, and assumed that such work is "required" simply because
"well, the Lexus dealer said it was".

I was baited and switched by the Toyota dealership.
If "Toyota" doesn't recommend a flush, why did a service writer
(presumably trained by Toyota) wearing a Toyota outfit at a Toyota
dealership recommend the flush (after service began), especially if,
as you claim, would be damaging to my car?
And from what I hear, a common transmission fluid change only changes
a small percentage of the total transmission fluid.

[V]

Post by Steve Larson
In my opinion, when you tout as fact the marketing phrases from the Lexus
owners manual, you're just asking to get fragged here...

I'm not touting anything for Lexus, or I would have gone to them to
service (60K) my vehicle.
Elmo asked for info from my Lexus owner's manual, and I provided a
quote.

But frag away! :)

[Steve Larson]

No fragging from me, only discussion. I've been very disappointed in the
gap between the Lexus marketing and the real customer experience. I know
that others have had great experiences though.

Post by V

Post by Steve Larson
In my opinion, when you tout as fact the marketing phrases from the Lexus
owners manual, you're just asking to get fragged here...

I'm not touting anything for Lexus, or I would have gone to them to
service (60K) my vehicle.
Elmo asked for info from my Lexus owner's manual, and I provided a
quote.
But frag away! :)

[Matthew]

I'm a relatively new Lexus owner (CPO 2005 ES 330). Great car, crappy
tranny.
YES the service area is VERY nice.
YES the service advisors are very nice.
BUT my dealer gets $140 for an oil change, tire rotation, and cheap car
wash.
Oil change= $35.00
Tire rotation= $39.00
Car Wash= $10.00

PRETTY DEALERSHIP, COFFEE AND DONUTS= $56.00 !!!!

For WHAT?? I get a nice service area, AND the coffee and donuts at my old
Toyota dealer, with the oil change and tire rotation for LESS THAN $50.
And the bigger services??? $1000 for a timing belt?!?!?!?!
C'mon.......

Post by Steve Larson
No fragging from me, only discussion. I've been very disappointed in the
gap between the Lexus marketing and the real customer experience. I know
that others have had great experiences though.

Post by V

Post by Steve Larson
In my opinion, when you tout as fact the marketing phrases from the Lexus
owners manual, you're just asking to get fragged here...

I'm not touting anything for Lexus, or I would have gone to them to
service (60K) my vehicle.
Elmo asked for info from my Lexus owner's manual, and I provided a
quote.
But frag away! :)