is250 vs. 325i

[Robert A. Cibiras]

I am interested in trading my Acura TL, and have
narrowed the most likely possible replacements to
the Lexus is250 and the BMW 325i, both with manual
transmission.

I am interested in whatever input anyone might
have. I have owned a number of Toyotas over the
years, but no Lexus and no BMW.

I have heard that Lexus takes Toyota's quality and
attention to detail to the next level, and that in
the long run BMW is very expensive to maintain. I
have friends who own both - and swear they
wouldn't drive anything else.

Suggestions, pros, cons, all info would be
appreciated.

Many thanks.

Robert

[Floyd Rogers]

I am interested in trading my Acura TL, and have narrowed the most likely
possible replacements to the Lexus is250 and the BMW 325i, both with manual
transmission.
I am interested in whatever input anyone might have. I have owned a number
of Toyotas over the years, but no Lexus and no BMW.
I have heard that Lexus takes Toyota's quality and attention to detail to
the next level, and that in the long run BMW is very expensive to
maintain. I have friends who own both - and swear they wouldn't drive
anything else.

I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.
The Camry that I bought my mom has cost about the same as my 330xi.
Some parts for my T100 cost *MORE* than the same part for my 330xi -
for instance the starter solenoid went out and the entire starter had to be
replaced; the O2 sensor is TWICE as expensive as those on BMWs.
My wife's Highlander has more often maintenance intervals; in aggregate
they cost what it does for my 330xi. And the maintenance on the BMW
is free for 4yrs/50K.

YMMV.

FloydR

[Fred W]

Post by Floyd Rogers

I am interested in trading my Acura TL, and have narrowed the most likely
possible replacements to the Lexus is250 and the BMW 325i, both with manual
transmission.
I am interested in whatever input anyone might have. I have owned a number
of Toyotas over the years, but no Lexus and no BMW.
I have heard that Lexus takes Toyota's quality and attention to detail to
the next level, and that in the long run BMW is very expensive to
maintain. I have friends who own both - and swear they wouldn't drive
anything else.

I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.
The Camry that I bought my mom has cost about the same as my 330xi.
Some parts for my T100 cost *MORE* than the same part for my 330xi -
for instance the starter solenoid went out and the entire starter had to be
replaced; the O2 sensor is TWICE as expensive as those on BMWs.
My wife's Highlander has more often maintenance intervals; in aggregate
they cost what it does for my 330xi. And the maintenance on the BMW
is free for 4yrs/50K.

...in the US.

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

This is the way my father in law explained it to me 30 years ago: "the
Germans are quite up front about maintenance costs. The Japanese want you
to believe their cars are cheaspre cheap to maintain but in reality they cost
about the same".

Volvo parts seem the be THE most expensive.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

This is the way my father in law explained it to me 30 years ago: "the
Germans are quite up front about maintenance costs. The Japanese want you
to believe their cars are cheaspre cheap to maintain but in reality they cost
about the same".

Not true.

[E Brown]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:38:17 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

This is the way my father in law explained it to me 30 years ago: "the
Germans are quite up front about maintenance costs. The Japanese want you
to believe their cars are cheaspre cheap to maintain but in reality they cost
about the same".

Not true.

According to Edmunds.com, the cost per mile for the 2003 Lexus IS
300 is .60 cents, while a 2003 330i is .63 cents, averaged over 5
years of ownership while driving 15,000 miles/year.
epbrown
--
"Everybody wants a normal life and a cool car;
most people will settle for the car." Chris Titus
2003 BMW 325i Black/Black, 2003 BMW Z4 Black/Black

[Fred W]

Post by E Brown
According to Edmunds.com, the cost per mile for the 2003 Lexus IS
300 is .60 cents, while a 2003 330i is .63 cents, averaged over 5
years of ownership while driving 15,000 miles/year.
epbrown

...which, considering the method of acquiring the data, is statistically
insignificant.

[David Z]

Post by E Brown
According to Edmunds.com, the cost per mile for the 2003 Lexus IS
300 is .60 cents, while a 2003 330i is .63 cents, averaged over 5
years of ownership while driving 15,000 miles/year.
epbrown

I suspect that this statistic only includes regularly scheduled
maintenance. In other words, it probably assumes no repairs.

It would be interesting to see cost of ownership statistics that factor
in the well-known difference in repair history between Lexus and BMW
and/or MB.

But dollar cost isn't the only measure. I put a significant value on
the time I spend in the repair shop and the stress that time adds to my
life.

You guys talk about the "driving experience." My "driving experience"
is greatly diminished when my car is in the repair shop. Also, when
both cars are operating properly I *prefer* the Lexus ride.

[E Brown]

Post by David Z

Post by E Brown
According to Edmunds.com, the cost per mile for the 2003 Lexus IS
300 is .60 cents, while a 2003 330i is .63 cents, averaged over 5
years of ownership while driving 15,000 miles/year.
epbrown

I suspect that this statistic only includes regularly scheduled
maintenance. In other words, it probably assumes no repairs.

Actually, I was a little surprised that the figures, which are
broken out on the web site, included both maintenance and repairs. I
don't know about Toyota's warranty, but for the 2003 330i there
shouldn't be expenses for either for another couple of years -
maintenance and repairs are covered by the respective warranties. I
went to the dealership recently to get a bulb for my left headlight,
and everyone kept trying to convince me to bring it around to the
service department to fix it.

Post by David Z
It would be interesting to see cost of ownership statistics that factor
in the well-known difference in repair history between Lexus and BMW
and/or MB.

I'd be interested as well. I currently keep Excel spreadsheets for
both my BMWs, but there's not much there yet - the only expenses have
been fuel, insurance, and 4 light bulbs (one turn signal on the 325i,
the Z4 driver's side headlight mentioned above, and two Philips bulbs
when I decided to go with brighter headlights on the Z4).
Oh, I also added the Auxiliary Audio Kit to both cars to play my
mp3 player through the stereo, which was ~$100 for the kits - I
installed them myself.
epbrown
--
"Everybody wants a normal life and a cool car;
most people will settle for the car." Chris Titus
2003 BMW 325i Black/Black, 2003 BMW Z4 Black/Black

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

This is the way my father in law explained it to me 30 years ago: "the
Germans are quite up front about maintenance costs. The Japanese want you
to believe their cars are cheaspre cheap to maintain but in reality they cost
about the same".

I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)

And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...

....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.

At some point, without unlimited funds, you are at a decision point:
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.

Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.

Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.

And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for
it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German
car mistress to be in the mood to play.

Do this: start paying attention to cars with tail light and headlight
problems. What brands of cars are you seeing? That's right--VW, M-B, and
BMW. And pay attention to how old, or rather how new, those problem cars
are.

The reality of electrical issues with German cars make Lucas electrics
look reliable.

Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.

It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You
want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're
throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as
reliable a car.

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

This is the way my father in law explained it to me 30 years ago: "the
Germans are quite up front about maintenance costs. The Japanese want you
to believe their cars are cheaspre cheap to maintain but in reality they cost
about the same".

I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)
And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...
....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.
Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.
Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.

Try buying a German car that's not thrashed. I've had new Japanese cars
and old German cars and the Germans cars have been far far cheaper to
maintain.

Just another data point.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Richard Sexton
Try buying a German car that's not thrashed. I've had new Japanese cars
and old German cars and the Germans cars have been far far cheaper to
maintain.

Pardon me, but that's utter and complete bullshit.

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Richard Sexton
Try buying a German car that's not thrashed. I've had new Japanese cars
and old German cars and the Germans cars have been far far cheaper to

No, that's been my experience. You may not agree. That's ok
reaosnable people disagree all the time.

[Brett]

There's no bias towards German cars at all in that post . . . from
someone that sells Mercedes parts. I am also biased, as I have an
IS350.

When thinking of long term costs, it is possible that German cars are
cheaper. Remember how mechanics/dealers get cheaper parts, other cars
that break. With more German cars breaking in the long term, there
will be more available parts, increasing the supply, and dropping the
price :-)

-b

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

This is the way my father in law explained it to me 30 years ago: "the
Germans are quite up front about maintenance costs. The Japanese want you
to believe their cars are cheaspre cheap to maintain but in reality they cost
about the same".

I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)
And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...
....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.
Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.
Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.

Try buying a German car that's not thrashed. I've had new Japanese cars
and old German cars and the Germans cars have been far far cheaper to
maintain.
Just another data point.
--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Brett
There's no bias towards German cars at all in that post . . . from
someone that sells Mercedes parts. I am also biased, as I have an
IS350.

I don't sell parts and don't make a cent off any parts sold. I've been
answering the question "where can I get parts" for so long I simply
include it ina sigfile so I don't have to answer it any more.

Post by Brett
When thinking of long term costs, it is possible that German cars are
cheaper. Remember how mechanics/dealers get cheaper parts, other cars
that break. With more German cars breaking in the long term, there
will be more available parts, increasing the supply, and dropping the
price :-)

Fantasy. 90% of the parts for a 50's 190SL are still available from the
factory. Try getting a door handle for a 240Z and lemme now how that works
out.

German cars age well. They're meant to be repaired. There's lots of old
ones about. Japanese cars don't age they're recycled into cans.

In the short term, say after the warrenty expires to about 10 yrs perhaps
Japanese cars are cheaper to maintain (although this wasn't my experience with
a half dozen of them) but longer term? Fuggetaboutit.

While the warrenty is in effect it's all the same.

Keep in mind my newset car is 23 years old. Maybe it's me but I don't
see a lot of 23 year old Japaense cars running around.

You no doubt like your car(s) and I like mine and I'm happy for that
but I spent a lifetime finding out my dad was wrong about the cost
of fun cars. And I'd hate to think anybody made a decision to buy a Japanese
car over one that was more fun because of something stupid somebody said on
usenet.

[David Z]

Post by Richard Sexton
Fantasy. 90% of the parts for a 50's 190SL are still available from the
factory. Try getting a door handle for a 240Z and lemme now how that works
out.
German cars age well. They're meant to be repaired. There's lots of old
ones about. Japanese cars don't age they're recycled into cans.
In the short term, say after the warrenty expires to about 10 yrs perhaps
Japanese cars are cheaper to maintain (although this wasn't my

experience with

Post by Richard Sexton
a half dozen of them) but longer term? Fuggetaboutit.
While the warrenty is in effect it's all the same.
Keep in mind my newset car is 23 years old. Maybe it's me but I don't
see a lot of 23 year old Japaense cars running around.

Well, if you're talking about cars built in the 1970s and 1980s, you've
got a good point.

But if you're talking about cars built in this century, it's a very
different story.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by David Z

Post by Richard Sexton
Keep in mind my newset car is 23 years old. Maybe it's me but I don't
see a lot of 23 year old Japaense cars running around.

Well, if you're talking about cars built in the 1970s and 1980s, you've
got a good point.
But if you're talking about cars built in this century, it's a very
different story.

Hell, even cars built from 1990 on.

Let's take a 94 M-B vs. a 94 Lexus, cars that have been on the road with
average drivers, and see how they fare.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Richard Sexton
And I'd hate to think anybody made a decision to buy a Japanese
car over one that was more fun because of something stupid somebody said on
usenet.

And I'd hate to think anybody made a decision to buy a "fun" car over
one that made much more sense because of something stupid somebody said
on usenet.

[Fred W]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton
And I'd hate to think anybody made a decision to buy a Japanese
car over one that was more fun because of something stupid somebody said on
usenet.

And I'd hate to think anybody made a decision to buy a "fun" car over
one that made much more sense because of something stupid somebody said
on usenet.

Life is too short to drive *boring* cars, even if they cost less to
operate (but they probably don't, you just want to think they do)

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Fred W
Life is too short to drive *boring* cars, even if they cost less to
operate (but they probably don't, you just want to think they do)

Thanks for admitting that they probably do cost more to operate.

Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

And let's face it: how much time does the average American spend in his
car every day? How much of that is stop-and-go vs freeway or open road
driving? There isn't much open road time in people's lives. The German
car costs quite a bit of money for what it ultimately offers.

[Jon Blake]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
Life is too short to drive *boring* cars, even if they cost less to
operate (but they probably don't, you just want to think they do)

Thanks for admitting that they probably do cost more to operate.
Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.
And let's face it: how much time does the average American spend in his
car every day? How much of that is stop-and-go vs freeway or open road
driving? There isn't much open road time in people's lives. The German
car costs quite a bit of money for what it ultimately offers.

I know I shouldn't be sucked into this pissing match, but can't resist.
Strikes me that each individual situation is different; it doesn't really
matter what the "average American" does. What counts if what I do.

What do I do? I ride a bicycle to work each day. I have an old Jeep
Cherokee for going to the store, drives up logging roads to hike to alpine
lakes for flyfishing. I use my BMW for what it's built for. And no, for
me at least, there aren't "MUCH" more fun things than driving. Driving is
one of the most fun things I do. But that's just me. If others want other
vehicles, I could care.

- Jon

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
Life is too short to drive *boring* cars, even if they cost less to
operate (but they probably don't, you just want to think they do)

Thanks for admitting that they probably do cost more to operate.
Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

Yeah, I agree. I don't get this "boring car" stuff. And the
"ultimate driving machine" crappola from BMW never was
anything to me but hooey and hype. Lots of cars now
offer great handling and good performance, AND my BMW
doesn't even handle that well.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And let's face it: how much time does the average American spend in his
car every day? How much of that is stop-and-go vs freeway or open road
driving? There isn't much open road time in people's lives.

Yep, and in the US, there are enforced things, like speed limits....
and nowadays especially, if you decide to open the beamer up
on a straightaway, and hurt anybody (even if sober and straight),
you're likely looking at time in prison.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The German car costs quite a bit of money for what it ultimately offers.

What my beamer offers is great looks and speed. What it lacks
is reliability (a big downside) and a comfortable interior. It's
likely
gonna be Lexus, or even Toyota, for me next time.

(During the first 85,000 miles, I've needed a new auto tranny;
cat coverter; electric window motors; windows becoming out
of alignment for no apparent reason; door lock failure, wheel
shimmies whose cause cannot be found; new thermostat;
new secondary air flow pump; new AC blower motor [along
with failures of the motor on TWO OTHER occasions due
to electronic component failures on circuitboard]; emissions
control problem that can't be found without extensive effort;
hood paint bubbling up due to factory flaw in seam under lip of
hood; new [or refurbished] instrument cluster [and sometimes
the one installed now acts up]; and several more minor electrical
problems. In all, I have spend MANY thousands of dollars
in repairs.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[David Z]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001
--
Cliff

Your sig is a fabricated lie promulgated by hate groups. Are you aware
of that, Cliff?

See:
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=373&x_article=373

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by David Z

Post by c***@yahoo.com
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001
--
Cliff

Your sig is a fabricated lie promulgated by hate groups.

The claim that Israel kills so many Arab children because they
use them as shields, that Isreal is just defending itself, that
Israel's interests are the same as American interests are the
big lies being told today.

Have you read the Mearsheimer/ Walt Report? Or do you
believe the Zionist lie that they got their infomation from hate
sites?

Post by David Z
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=373&x_article=373

Zionist site.... apparently the favorite for people like you.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[David Z]

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=373&x_article=373

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Zionist site....

The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!

The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!

What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by David Z
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=373&x_article=373

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Zionist site....

The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

Whoa, don't flip your kippah.

What are your feelings on the Mearsheimer/Walt Report?
And please be brutally honest. This could be fun!

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[David Z]

<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

(more hate-filled lies)

Go spill your puke in some other newsgroup you Nazi bastard!!!!!!!!!!!

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by David Z
(more hate-filled lies)
Go spill your puke in some other newsgroup you Nazi bastard!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh no, Nazis. You've been a big disappointment.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[David Z]

Post by David Z
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

Well, asshole?????!!!!!!!!!

It's your sig, WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE?????????????

[David Z]

Post by David Z
The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

(more nonresponse responses)

Well, asshole...WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE???????!!!!!!!!

[David Z]

Post by David Z
The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

(more nonresponse responses)

Well, asshole...WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE???????!!!!!!!!

[David Z]

Post by David Z
The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

(more nonresponse responses)

Well, asshole...WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE???????!!!!!!!!

[s***@pandora.orbl.org]

Post by David Z

Post by David Z
The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

(more nonresponse responses)
Well, asshole...WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE???????!!!!!!!!

Hmm, I think ol Dave here is just about to explode. Everyone keep an eye out
for small fart like eruptions.

[David Z]

Post by David Z
The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

(more nonresponse responses)

Well, asshole...WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE???????!!!!!!!!

[David Z]

Post by David Z

Post by David Z
The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

(more nonresponse responses)
Well, asshole...WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE???????!!!!!!!!

Cliff, the FUCKING LIAR, stopped using the fabricated lie in this
newsgroup, but continues to use it elsewhere.

In other words, he knows it's a lie and continues to use it anyway. He
thinks if he just stops posting it in this newsgroup that's OK.

He's shown that he's not only a deliberate LIAR, but a COWARD, too.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by David Z
Cliff, the FUCKING LIAR, stopped using the fabricated lie in this
newsgroup,

No he didn't. See? Let's make that uppercase!

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"DON'T WORRY ABOUR AMERICAN PRESSURE ON ISRAEL. WE,
THE JEWISH PEOPLE CONTROL AMERICA, AND THE AMERICANS
KNOW IT."
---ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER ARIEL SHARON, 2001

[Dodgy]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by David Z
Cliff, the FUCKING LIAR, stopped using the fabricated lie in this
newsgroup,

No he didn't. See? Let's make that uppercase!
-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"DON'T WORRY ABOUR AMERICAN PRESSURE ON ISRAEL. WE,
THE JEWISH PEOPLE CONTROL AMERICA, AND THE AMERICANS
KNOW IT."
---ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER ARIEL SHARON, 2001

Actually I believe you are incorrect Mr Cliff.

The death ratio closer to 8:1

Dodgy.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Dodgy
Actually I believe you are incorrect Mr Cliff.
The death ratio closer to 8:1

I got my stated figure from the excellent Mearsheimer/Walt
Report, but it could likely have been on the conservative side.
Their *Arab* children-to-Israeli children ratio quite likely is
that high, especially since the Ziokillers "improved" on this
figure recently with their slaughter of so many in Lebanon.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[David Z]

<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

(more lies and assorted bullshit)

...which I considered responding to...but I couldn't think of anything
more indicting of Cliff than his own words...LOL!

[David Z]

Post by David Z
The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

(more nonresponse responses)

Well, asshole...WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE???????!!!!!!!!

Cliff continues to use this fabricated lie in his sig even though he
knows it to be a falsehood.

He continues to demonstrate that he's a deliberate LIAR and a COWARD,
too!

[David Z]

Post by David Z
The quote in your sig is fabricated by liars, you ASSHOLE!!!!!!
The quote is attributed to a reporter who says it's a FABRICATED
LIE!!!!!!!
What's your source, asshole?????!!!!!!!

(more nonresponse responses)

Well, asshole...WHAT'S YOUR SOURCE???????!!!!!!!!

Cliff continues to use this fabricated lie in his sig even though he
knows it to be a falsehood.

He continues to demonstrate that he's a deliberate LIAR and a COWARD,
too!

[Psycho]

I know you.... Your grammer and lack of anything close to proper
punctuation gives you away. Welcome back to the world of the living,
now crawl away and die.

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by David Z

Post by c***@yahoo.com
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001
--
Cliff

Your sig is a fabricated lie promulgated by hate groups.

The claim that Israel kills so many Arab children because they
use them as shields, that Isreal is just defending itself, that
Israel's interests are the same as American interests are the
big lies being told today.
Have you read the Mearsheimer/ Walt Report? Or do you
believe the Zionist lie that they got their infomation from hate
sites?

Post by David Z
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=373&x_article=373

Zionist site.... apparently the favorite for people like you.
-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[E28 Guy©]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
Life is too short to drive *boring* cars,

I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

Yeah, I agree. I don't get this "boring car" stuff. And the
"ultimate driving machine" crappola from BMW never was
anything to me but hooey and hype.

That's all you need to say to make it abundantly clear that you, too,
wouldn't know what to do with a performance car if it smacked you
upside the head.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Lots of cars now
offer great handling and good performance, AND my BMW
doesn't even handle that well.

How would you know? Ever lost traction in your BMW? Ever autocrossed
in it? Ever engaged the ABS on dry pavement? I'm betting your driving
never has and probably never will come close to the performance
envelope of your car.

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And let's face it: how much time does the average American spend in his
car every day? How much of that is stop-and-go vs freeway or open road
driving? There isn't much open road time in people's lives.

Yep, and in the US, there are enforced things, like speed limits....

OOH! Speed limits! Yeah; I've heard of them. I use 'em as advisory
numbers when I'm anywhere near traffic.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
and nowadays especially, if you decide to open the beamer up
on a straightaway, and hurt anybody (even if sober and straight),
you're likely looking at time in prison.

Not that you needed to add this, but it simply reinforces that you
haven't a clue what a BMW is about. It is not a 'beamer' except to the
unwashed masses. Why you would go to the bother of typing a longer
cutesy nickname than simply 'BMW' is beyond me. If you want to be
cute, it's 'bimmer' - which rhymes with 'simmer' or 'glimmer'.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
What my beamer offers is great looks

Not if Chris Bangle had anything to do with it. =8^O

Post by c***@yahoo.com
and speed.

It's not a musclecar. It's not a drag racer. It is a *drivers'* car.
That means you need to *drive it* to appreciate it. A well trained
chimpanzee could put it in 'Drive' and stomp the accelerator and hold
it there while going in a straight line ... can't you?

Post by c***@yahoo.com
What it lacks is reliability (a big downside)

An enthusiast can often fix it. But messing up your manicure working
on your car would be beneath *you*, wouldn't it?

Post by c***@yahoo.com
and a comfortable interior.

Didn't get the sport seats?

Post by c***@yahoo.com
It's likely gonna be Lexus, or even Toyota, for me next time.

Ah; there *is* a God! You do that and stick with 'em. We don't need
more BMW dilettantes. We do need more BMW driving enthusiasts and you
clearly don't qualify.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
(During the first 85,000 miles, I've needed a new auto tranny;

Ewww! A slushbox! No surprise there. During the first 187,000 miles,
my car has needed a clutch release bearing, so I changed the clutch
even though it was working fine. It's one of those 'while you're in
there' jobs. The gearbox is still fine. Getting my short shift kit
installed soon, I hope.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
cat coverter; electric window motors; windows becoming out
of alignment for no apparent reason;

Yup. All that stuff. But the apparent reason is, the car's 19 years
old.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
door lock failure,

Nope.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
wheel shimmies whose cause cannot be found;

Yup. Fixed.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
new thermostat;

Not sure. It *looks* kinda' new ... but I've only had this one for
20,000 miles.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
new secondary air flow pump;

Ain't got one.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
new AC blower motor [along
with failures of the motor on TWO OTHER occasions due
to electronic component failures on circuitboard];

No; but it was converted to R134a.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
emissions control problem that can't be found without extensive effort;

Nope.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
hood paint bubbling up due to factory flaw in seam under lip of hood;

No; but there's some northeast Ohio salt-caused rust starting to show
up in the rockers and door bottoms. I'll probably fix it.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
new [or refurbished] instrument cluster [and sometimes
the one installed now acts up]; and several more minor electrical
problems.

Nope

Post by c***@yahoo.com
In all, I have spend MANY thousands of dollars in repairs.

Gee; probably more than I've spent on my car *and* its repairs. Meet
Da Red Dog at

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/578895

It's never let me down. You have my permission to be jealous.
--
C.R. Krieger
(BMW driving enthusiast)

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by E28 Guy©
It's not a musclecar. It's not a drag racer. It is a *drivers'* car.
That means you need to *drive it* to appreciate it.

When it's functioning.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by E28 Guy©

Post by c***@yahoo.com
What it lacks is reliability (a big downside)

An enthusiast can often fix it.

Thank you for confirming that it does lack reliability.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by E28 Guy©
That's all you need to say to make it abundantly clear that you, too,
wouldn't know what to do with a performance car if it smacked you
upside the head.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Lots of cars now
offer great handling and good performance, AND my BMW
doesn't even handle that well.

How would you know? Ever lost traction in your BMW? Ever autocrossed
in it? Ever engaged the ABS on dry pavement? I'm betting your driving
never has and probably never will come close to the performance
envelope of your car.

So, where do you play all these fun and games. Have your own
road course on your property? I used to drive like this some
when I was 16. Some guys never mature beyond that. You
sound more like boy than man.

Post by E28 Guy©
OOH! Speed limits! Yeah; I've heard of them. I use 'em as advisory
numbers when I'm anywhere near traffic.

How's your driving history? How much in insurance premiums?

Post by E28 Guy©
Not that you needed to add this, but it simply reinforces that you
haven't a clue what a BMW is about. It is not a 'beamer' except to the
unwashed masses.

Save it. I'll call it what I want. That
beamer/bimmer/bremmer/blather/
bummer shit has been flogged to death here over the years.

Post by E28 Guy©
Why you would go to the bother of typing a longer
cutesy nickname than simply 'BMW' is beyond me. If you want to be
cute, it's 'bimmer' - which rhymes with 'simmer' or 'glimmer'.

I prefer Bummer.

Post by E28 Guy©
It's not a musclecar. It's not a drag racer. It is a *drivers'* car.
That means you need to *drive it* to appreciate it. A well trained
chimpanzee could put it in 'Drive' and stomp the accelerator and hold
it there while going in a straight line ... can't you?

Post by c***@yahoo.com
What it lacks is reliability (a big downside)

An enthusiast can often fix it. But messing up your manicure working
on your car would be beneath *you*, wouldn't it?

Manicure my ass. My hands are scuffed up as I speak from doing
work under the hood last week (belt replacements). The frigging
things were already cracking at 28,000 miles.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Manicure my ass. My hands are scuffed up as I speak from doing
work under the hood last week (belt replacements). The frigging
things were already cracking at 28,000 miles.

Ignore the cracking - they all do that. They'll be ok for double that
mileage.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Manicure my ass. My hands are scuffed up as I speak from doing
work under the hood last week (belt replacements). The frigging
things were already cracking at 28,000 miles.

Ignore the cracking - they all do that. They'll be ok for double that
mileage.

Ya know, you're probably right. They could've lasted the usual 60k
miles. I've noticed that there can be a lot of cracking on the rubber
side, with the rest of the belt seemingly as good as new, and I find
it hard to believe that they are near failing at that point. I've had
a
belt fail on me just once in my life, about 25 years ago, and believe
me, this thing was clearly worn out from just looking at it, but I
kept putting off replacing it. So it left me stranded in the middle
of nowhere.

I replaced these last week because a BMW mechanic who was doing other
work on the car told me that they really should be replaced,
even though he had no interest in doing it himself, as he knew
I did this kind of work myself. I thought, what the hell, I'll put
new ones on, especially since I'm driving the car to Miami
next week. But I still believe that what you say is probably true.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[Fred W]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by E28 Guy©
An enthusiast can often fix it. But messing up your manicure working
on your car would be beneath *you*, wouldn't it?

Manicure my ass. My hands are scuffed up as I speak from doing
work under the hood last week (belt replacements). The frigging
things were already cracking at 28,000 miles.

My gawd!! That damned BMW can't make a belt that won't crack before 28k
miles?

Oh that's right... BMW doesn't make belts. They buy them just like
every other freeking car manufacturer.

Dolt.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Fred W
My gawd!! That damned BMW can't make a belt that won't crack before 28k
miles?
Oh that's right... BMW doesn't make belts. They buy them just like
every other freeking car manufacturer.

Yeah, just like they buy those shitty GM France auto trannies and stick
them in their new cars at the BMW factory.

Post by Fred W
Dolt.

Did I upset your widdu feelings?

--
Cliff

[Fred W]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Fred W
My gawd!! That damned BMW can't make a belt that won't crack before 28k
miles?
Oh that's right... BMW doesn't make belts. They buy them just like
every other freeking car manufacturer.

Yeah, just like they buy those shitty GM France auto trannies and stick
them in their new cars at the BMW factory.

Post by Fred W
Dolt.

Did I upset your widdu feelings?

Not in the least. But thanks for your concern.

You really should see a specialist about that speech problem though,
Elmer...

[Richard Sexton]

Post by E28 Guy©

Post by c***@yahoo.com
In all, I have spend MANY thousands of dollars in repairs.

Gee; probably more than I've spent on my car *and* its repairs. Meet

Now I feel bad. I bought my 633 4 years ago for $500 at a dealer auction.
Nobody wanted to touch an exotic complicated expensive to maintain car
like that.

I put in a new brake bomb, soft lines and had to locate a NLA
turn signal bezel.

Oh, it ate a fuse once too. The car is not rusty, the interior looks
new and it goes like a scalded cat and handles like a Lotus 7.

I've spent more than the price of car+maintenance, just on shocks
(struts actually) for a Japanese car.

Just one data point. And proof that to say "all german cars are
expensive to maintain" is factually incorrect.

[Fred W]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
Life is too short to drive *boring* cars, even if they cost less to
operate (but they probably don't, you just want to think they do)

Thanks for admitting that they probably do cost more to operate.

Actually, I said no such thing. I said "even *if* they cost less..."
followed by "they probably don't..."

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

So now we get down to the real "crux of the biscuit". You are not a
driving enthusiast in the least. People that are driving enthusiasts
*do* enjoy driving as much as, sometimes more, than what you may
consider more fun. I for one enjoy driving cars (and even more so,
motorcycles) much more than I enjoy "saving money for other things".

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And let's face it: how much time does the average American spend in his
car every day? How much of that is stop-and-go vs freeway or open road
driving? There isn't much open road time in people's lives. The German
car costs quite a bit of money for what it ultimately offers.

I average a very small amount of time in my car or on my bikes each day.
I do not commute. But I live in an area with a large percentage of
open (rural) roads. I spend as little time as humanly possible in stop
and go traffic. That is one reason that I greatly prefer driving a
manual transmission, sporty handling car over a softly sprung, slush-box
encumbered lux-o box.

The funnies thing is, because you can't appreciate the difference
between these cars you think everyone should drive the same car that you
do. That is just plain silly.

In my opinion, you should continue to drive whatever car makes you feel
best and I should do likewise. In fact, everyone can follow that basic
tenant and they just can't go wrong!!

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Fred W

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

So now we get down to the real "crux of the biscuit". You are not a
driving enthusiast in the least.

I am. Quite a bit.

But for a daily driver, and for most people, the German cars come at a
much higher expense than what they offer. Period.

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
So now we get down to the real "crux of the biscuit". You are not a
driving enthusiast in the least.

I am. Quite a bit.

Pardon me while I giggle uncontrollably.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
But for a daily driver, and for most people, the German cars come at a
much higher expense than what they offer. Period.

Ya know if you were trying to use some hairy V12 as a daily driver I might
see your point. But then there's these diesel things...

And as you said, "most" people.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I am. Quite a bit.

Pardon me while I giggle uncontrollably.

Ah. You're one who sees YOUR piece of the world, and doesn't understand
anyone who can see beyond his own piece of the world.

So now we know where you come from.

[Fred W]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

So now we get down to the real "crux of the biscuit". You are not a
driving enthusiast in the least.

I am. Quite a bit.
But for a daily driver, and for most people, the German cars come at a
much higher expense than what they offer. Period.

Yeah, and eighty percent of all people say they are above average drivers...

[Webster Mingus Coltrane]

What do you drive?


============
BuckShot LeFunk
==
1998 LS 400
1999 E320 4-Matic

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I am. Quite a bit.
But for a daily driver, and for most people, the German cars come at a
much higher expense than what they offer. Period.

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
driving? There isn't much open road time in people's lives. The German
car costs quite a bit of money for what it ultimately offers.

Yeah and sex is highly overrated too.

[E28 Guy©]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
Life is too short to drive *boring* cars

Yer damn right, Fred!

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
even if they cost less to
operate (but they probably don't, you just want to think they do)

Thanks for admitting that they probably do cost more to operate.

He didn't. And they don't.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

If greed puts more of a smile on your face than driving a fine
automobile, then you are not a driving enthusiast. If you would rather
save the money than spend $300-$400 on a 2-day driving school with,
say, the BMW club, then you are not an enthusiast. Anyone who would
choose a boring car with no more motivation than yours is not an
enthusiast.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And let's face it: how much time does the average American spend in his
car every day? How much of that is stop-and-go vs freeway or open road
driving? There isn't much open road time in people's lives.

Apparently, I'm not 'average'. I generally put in some 35-40 miles a
day commuting on largely deserted rural roads. If it isn't 'Jeep
weather', I'll be in my BMW.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The German car costs quite a bit of money for what it ultimately offers.

No it doesn't. But maybe you should meet Da Red Dog:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/578895
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; drove that)

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by E28 Guy©

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

If greed puts more of a smile on your face than driving a fine
automobile, then you are not a driving enthusiast.

Who said anything about greed?

You're putting words in people's mouths now--all so you can try to
justify yourself.

Life is full of choices. For example, I prefer to be on the beach in
Hawaii over driving a BMW. If I can do both, great. If not, if I have
to rank them, I'll take the beach.

[Fred W]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Life is full of choices. For example, I prefer to be on the beach in
Hawaii over driving a BMW. If I can do both, great. If not, if I have
to rank them, I'll take the beach.

Lying on a beach (anywhere)?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

[s***@pandora.orbl.org]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by E28 Guy©

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Life is full of choices. I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

If greed puts more of a smile on your face than driving a fine
automobile, then you are not a driving enthusiast.

Who said anything about greed?
You're putting words in people's mouths now--all so you can try to
justify yourself.
Life is full of choices. For example, I prefer to be on the beach in
Hawaii over driving a BMW. If I can do both, great. If not, if I have
to rank them, I'll take the beach.

Get rid of your BMWs NOW. That's assuming you have any.
You'll be much happier in a camry, snicker.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by s***@pandora.orbl.org

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Life is full of choices. For example, I prefer to be on the beach in
Hawaii over driving a BMW. If I can do both, great. If not, if I have
to rank them, I'll take the beach.

Get rid of your BMWs NOW. That's assuming you have any.
You'll be much happier in a camry, snicker.

No, I'll be much happier on the beach while you're in your garage,
snicker.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

Then you're right to have a Lexus. Designed for those to whom driving is
no more than a chore.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
I'd rather choose the "boring" car that puts a
smile on my face every day, knowing that the money I'm saving allows me
to do other, MUCH more fun things in life than driving.

Then you're right to have a Lexus. Designed for those to whom driving is
no more than a chore.

I never said driving was no more than a chore.

What I said was--now listen carefully--if I have to make the choice
between having fun driving a car (because that costs money) and having
fun on a beach on Hawaii, I'll CHOOSE to have my fun in Hawaii instead
of paying for fun in a car.

Choices. It's all about choices. I can accept the Lexus for what it
is--a dead-reliable choice for transport that does the job very well and
which allows me to put my discretionary--DISCRETIONARY, look it
up--dollars into a *more* enjoyable endeavor.

And interestingly enough--it puts a smile on my face knowing that that
car allows me to make the choice, that I'm not stuck with a world of
cars that are all expensive to own.

It's nice that you have a choice in life. You've made your choice.
Enjoy.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Then you're right to have a Lexus. Designed for those to whom driving is
no more than a chore.

I never said driving was no more than a chore.
What I said was--now listen carefully--if I have to make the choice
between having fun driving a car (because that costs money) and having
fun on a beach on Hawaii, I'll CHOOSE to have my fun in Hawaii instead
of paying for fun in a car.

So get a Skoda and have fun in the Seychelles...

[Fred W]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
What I said was--now listen carefully--if I have to make the choice
between having fun driving a car (because that costs money) and having
fun on a beach on Hawaii, I'll CHOOSE to have my fun in Hawaii instead
of paying for fun in a car.
Choices. It's all about choices. I can accept the Lexus for what it
is--a dead-reliable choice for transport that does the job very well and
which allows me to put my discretionary--DISCRETIONARY, look it
up--dollars into a *more* enjoyable endeavor.
And interestingly enough--it puts a smile on my face knowing that that
car allows me to make the choice, that I'm not stuck with a world of
cars that are all expensive to own.

This is all really quite hilariious considering that Lexuses (Lexi?) and
BMWs cost about the same amount to purchase new and BMWs cost absolutely
nothing to maintain during the 4 year warranty.

Just ignoring any difference in fun-factor right now, how is that Lexus
saving you money? What model do you own that is so much less expensive
than a BMW?

[Webster Mingus Coltrane]

Elmo P.

What do yu currently own? Drive?

Thanks


============
BuckShot LeFunk
==
1998 LS 400
1999 E320 4-Matic


Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

[pltrgyst]

.... The German car costs quite a bit of money for what it ultimately offers.

Yes, it does. But to some of us, what it offers is *essential.* And the
character of European performance cars is without equal in Japanese cars, which
are basically either appliances or clones of previously existing European cars,
which in only very rare exceptional cases exceed their derivative limitations:
the Datsun 510, the RX-7, the original Z, and a small subset of MX-5s.

I always have a BMW as my wife's daily driver and our touring car; I've never
had a maintenance problem with any of them. But then I put 95,000 miles on a
Fiat 124 Spider in three years without a single problem as well, and had three
Alfas to boot, plus a Fiat Dino. If you take care of things, they generally
last.

BTW, with the BMWs, I firmly believe that taking European delivery invariably
results in receiving an exceptional vehicle. I think the factory pays particular
attention to making those vehicles as good as they could possibly be.

-- Larry

1995 Miata R (~1300 total produced, 1994-97)
2002 325i sports pkg, etc.
2001 Aprilia Falco
2002 Honda 919
1985 Honda Interceptor 500
1972 Elden FF

[Xplant]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:38:08 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

.... The German car costs quite a bit of money for what it ultimately offers.

Yes, it does. But to some of us, what it offers is *essential.* And the
character of European performance cars is without equal in Japanese cars, which
are basically either appliances or clones of previously existing European cars,
the Datsun 510, the RX-7, the original Z, and a small subset of MX-5s.
I always have a BMW as my wife's daily driver and our touring car; I've never
had a maintenance problem with any of them. But then I put 95,000 miles on a
Fiat 124 Spider in three years without a single problem as well, and had three
Alfas to boot, plus a Fiat Dino. If you take care of things, they generally
last.
BTW, with the BMWs, I firmly believe that taking European delivery invariably
results in receiving an exceptional vehicle. I think the factory pays particular
attention to making those vehicles as good as they could possibly be.
-- Larry
1995 Miata R (~1300 total produced, 1994-97)
2002 325i sports pkg, etc.
2001 Aprilia Falco
2002 Honda 919
1985 Honda Interceptor 500
1972 Elden FF

Wow, you really tempted fate. 95,000 miles on a Fiat 124 Spider, and 3
Alfas-- sounds like you have used up 4 of your (hopefully) 9 lives.

Congratulations.

[Richard Sexton]

Post by pltrgyst
Fiat 124 Spider in three years without a single problem as well, and had three

Hey I had one of those, although a coupe. Great car and fairly trouble
free, easy to work on parts were cheap tons of fun. I heard they
were unreliable but mine wasn't if you simply looked after it properly.

I suspect if you wait for things to break then take it to the dealer
any car can be deemed unreliable. But if you understand how cars actually
work and are reasonable about things you won't relaly have trouble with
any car. Modulo certain very expensive Italian ones.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.

You're saying the bulbs never blow on Japanese cars? They must be
different Hondas and Toyotas we get in London...

[Fred W]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.

You're saying the bulbs never blow on Japanese cars? They must be
different Hondas and Toyotas we get in London...

well, actually, now-a-days they don't use bulbs at all. L.E.D.s

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Fred W

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.

You're saying the bulbs never blow on Japanese cars? They must be
different Hondas and Toyotas we get in London...

well, actually, now-a-days they don't use bulbs at all. L.E.D.s

All cars? They may look like LEDs but often aren't. And are usually
restricted to top of range models.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Fred W
well, actually, now-a-days they don't use bulbs at all. L.E.D.s

All cars? They may look like LEDs but often aren't. And are usually
restricted to top of range models.

All Honda Accords use LEDs now.

What was once top of the line, comes down to the pedestrian and entry
models within a few years. LEDs are no different.

[Dori A Schmetterling]

"Bollocks" (to 'steal' Dave Plowman's favourite expression.

I have driven Mercs old and new for >20 yrs and find them not unusually
bothersome to run. Maybe I don't know what 'usual' is, but I recall only
complete engine failure on a W123 200 (that was about 1984) at about 2000
miles which was fixed under warranty.

People's experiences with Merc and BMW will, of course, vary but I doubt
that on average it is much worse than with other brands, US J D Power
surveys notwithstanding. Sales of both brands are doing pretty well and
they would not be if there were real problems. Merc suffers from dealership
problems in some countries but at least in Britain this has been recognised
and some measures taken.

What really sorts the wheat from the chaff is age. The paintwork on a
BMW/Merc is as good as new after ten years, and so is the interior if has
been treated with a modicum of respect. And the shapes age pretty
gracefully. I doubt you could say that of most Japanese cars. How many
keen drivers are there of, for example, ten-year old Toyotas. Is Toyota as
proud of its seriously high mileage drivers as Mercedes is?

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

This is the way my father in law explained it to me 30 years ago: "the
Germans are quite up front about maintenance costs. The Japanese want you
to believe their cars are cheaspre cheap to maintain but in reality they cost
about the same".

I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)
And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...
....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.
Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.
Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.
And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for
it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German
car mistress to be in the mood to play.
Do this: start paying attention to cars with tail light and headlight
problems. What brands of cars are you seeing? That's right--VW, M-B, and
BMW. And pay attention to how old, or rather how new, those problem cars
are.
The reality of electrical issues with German cars make Lucas electrics
look reliable.
Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.
It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You
want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're
throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as
reliable a car.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Dori A Schmetterling
What really sorts the wheat from the chaff is age. The paintwork on a
BMW/Merc is as good as new after ten years, and so is the interior if has
been treated with a modicum of respect. And the shapes age pretty
gracefully. I doubt you could say that of most Japanese cars. How many
keen drivers are there of, for example, ten-year old Toyotas. Is Toyota as
proud of its seriously high mileage drivers as Mercedes is?

You plainly aren't paying any attention to what's going on around you,
otherwise you wouldn't have even come close to making the above
statement.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

This is the way my father in law explained it to me 30 years ago: "the
Germans are quite up front about maintenance costs. The Japanese want you
to believe their cars are cheaspre cheap to maintain but in reality they cost
about the same".

My Japanese cars have been *exceedingly* inexpensive to maintain,
and as reliable as an anvil.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Floyd Rogers
I don't know why people say that BMWs are expensive to maintain.

As far as parts prices, BMW parts are really no more expensive than
for any other make, as far as my observations are concerned.
The problem with BMW is reliability. Except for the engines
(which may be the best in the world), BMW owners can expect
failures in other systems, and often.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
As far as parts prices, BMW parts are really no more expensive than
for any other make, as far as my observations are concerned.
The problem with BMW is reliability. Except for the engines
(which may be the best in the world), BMW owners can expect
failures in other systems, and often.

Can they? I'm on my third in about 15 years - all bought secondhand - and
I've not had 'failure in other systems, and often' - even if I knew what
that was. ;-)
All makes need replacements from time to time. The difference is how
frequently this occurs which may be where the reliability surveys come
from. But they don't mean *every* car in that range will be the same.

[Mark Klebanoff]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 04:13:09 UTC, "Robert A. Cibiras"

Post by Robert A. Cibiras
I am interested in trading my Acura TL, and have
narrowed the most likely possible replacements to
the Lexus is250 and the BMW 325i, both with manual
transmission.
I am interested in whatever input anyone might
have. I have owned a number of Toyotas over the
years, but no Lexus and no BMW.

I have an 02 manual transmission IS300. From what I understand about
the IS250-350, they are fast cars, but not particularly sporty (seems
to be a Lexus characteristic, unfortunately). the BMW is probably
going to be a bit more of a "driver's car" but from everything I've
read, the Lexus will be the more reliable of the two by far.

[joe_tide]

I am interested in trading my Acura TL, and have narrowed the most likely
possible replacements to the Lexus is250 and the BMW 325i, both with manual
transmission.
I am interested in whatever input anyone might have. I have owned a number
of Toyotas over the years, but no Lexus and no BMW.
I have heard that Lexus takes Toyota's quality and attention to detail to
the next level, and that in the long run BMW is very expensive to
maintain. I have friends who own both - and swear they wouldn't drive
anything else.
Suggestions, pros, cons, all info would be appreciated.
Many thanks.
Robert

If you're looking at those two particular cars you are, evidently, intersted
in the driving dynamics. If that's the case, I'd choose the BMW.

If all you are interested in is reliability, pick the Lexus (or any other
driving appliance).

[Fred W]

Post by joe_tide

I am interested in trading my Acura TL, and have narrowed the most likely
possible replacements to the Lexus is250 and the BMW 325i, both with manual
transmission.
I am interested in whatever input anyone might have. I have owned a number
of Toyotas over the years, but no Lexus and no BMW.
I have heard that Lexus takes Toyota's quality and attention to detail to
the next level, and that in the long run BMW is very expensive to
maintain. I have friends who own both - and swear they wouldn't drive
anything else.
Suggestions, pros, cons, all info would be appreciated.
Many thanks.
Robert

If you're looking at those two particular cars you are, evidently, intersted
in the driving dynamics. If that's the case, I'd choose the BMW.
If all you are interested in is reliability, pick the Lexus (or any other
driving appliance).

I would not go quite that far... I think that a prior poster got it
right. The BMW is a better driver's car. The Lexus will be a softer
ride (mushy) and marginally more reliable. If talking new cars, the
maintenance on the BMW will be covered under warranty. But even for
cars out-of-warranty I would not expect to save much with the reliable
Lexus.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Fred W
The BMW is a better driver's car. The Lexus will be a softer
ride (mushy) and marginally more reliable.

The Lexus will be infinitely more reliable.

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
The BMW is a better driver's car. The Lexus will be a softer
ride (mushy) and marginally more reliable.

The Lexus will be infinitely more reliable.

Yeah. Plus chicks really dig toyotas.

[Fred W]

Post by Richard Sexton
Yeah. Plus chicks really dig toyotas.

Good point.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The Lexus will be infinitely more reliable.

Yeah. Plus chicks really dig toyotas.

I don't want women who base their choice of a man by what he drives.

(The Lexus isn't a toyota; it's made by Toyota, sure, but an SC400
screams something way different than a Corolla...)

[David]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The Lexus will be infinitely more reliable.

Yeah. Plus chicks really dig toyotas.

I don't want women who base their choice of a man by what he drives.
(The Lexus isn't a toyota; it's made by Toyota, sure, but an SC400
screams something way different than a Corolla...)

Speaking of SC400's, I had two of them and I really miss them. Too bad Lexus
couldn't have continued them. I understand about "progress" and all, but I
sure miss them!

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
The Lexus will be infinitely more reliable.

Yeah. Plus chicks really dig toyotas.

I don't want women who base their choice of a man by what he drives.

And I don't want women that'll settle for a toyota.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
(The Lexus isn't a toyota; it's made by Toyota, sure,

Well, that settles that then.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
screams something way different than a Corolla...)

Yeah it screams "look at me I look a lot like a Mercedes
but use even more expsneive Toyota parts that aren't
engineered to last decades". What a deal.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
screams something way different than a Corolla...)

Yeah it screams "look at me I look a lot like a Mercedes
but use even more expsneive Toyota parts that aren't
engineered to last decades". What a deal.

Ah. As opposed to even more expensive Mercedes parts that aren't
engineered to last any more than a few years.

Face it--M-B ain't what it used to be.

[Richard Sexton]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
screams something way different than a Corolla...)

Yeah it screams "look at me I look a lot like a Mercedes
but use even more expsneive Toyota parts that aren't
engineered to last decades". What a deal.

Ah. As opposed to even more expensive Mercedes parts that aren't
engineered to last any more than a few years.
Face it--M-B ain't what it used to be.

I'll be the first to admit that, I don't have much confidence in the new
cars. But if you can afford a Maybach you probably don't care.

I did see an old 240Z yeterday but the point remains you don't see many
old Japanese cars. I imagine getting parts for them might be an issue but
I'm just guessing.

Ironically the motor in that 240Z is a copy of the MB 6 from that era.

Copy copy copy.

[bfd]

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Richard Sexton

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
screams something way different than a Corolla...)

Yeah it screams "look at me I look a lot like a Mercedes
but use even more expsneive Toyota parts that aren't
engineered to last decades". What a deal.

Ah. As opposed to even more expensive Mercedes parts that aren't
engineered to last any more than a few years.
Face it--M-B ain't what it used to be.

I'll be the first to admit that, I don't have much confidence in the new
cars. But if you can afford a Maybach you probably don't care.
I did see an old 240Z yeterday but the point remains you don't see many
old Japanese cars. I imagine getting parts for them might be an issue but
I'm just guessing.
Ironically the motor in that 240Z is a copy of the MB 6 from that era.

Actually, the old 240Z from 1970-73 had a 2.4 liter engine that was
bulletproof. It was a larger version of the engine used in the old Datsun
510 (1968-73). The main problem with those old Datsuns wasn't the engine or
lack of parts, but that the steel body on them were so thin that most rusted
out, even here in California.

In general, Toyota/Lexus may be a bit more reliable than BMW. However, you
buy a BMW for the way it drives. If you don't notice a difference or can't
appreciate it, then get the Toyota.

Btw, if you look under the hood of a Lexus, most parts say Toyota, so yes,
it is a TOYOTA!

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by bfd
Btw, if you look under the hood of a Lexus, most parts say Toyota, so yes,
it is a TOYOTA!

Look under the hood of a Benz and the parts all say Daimler-Chrysler.

So they're nothing but Chryslers. Interesting...

[Fred W]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by bfd
Btw, if you look under the hood of a Lexus, most parts say Toyota, so yes,
it is a TOYOTA!

Look under the hood of a Benz and the parts all say Daimler-Chrysler.
So they're nothing but Chryslers. Interesting...

Yeah. What's your point? Does this somehow relate to a BMW?

Good thing most of us in the lexus and bmw newsgroups don't give a rats
behind about MBs...

[E28 Guy©]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by bfd
Btw, if you look under the hood of a Lexus, most parts say Toyota, so yes,
it is a TOYOTA!

Look under the hood of a Benz and the parts all say Daimler-Chrysler.
So they're nothing but Chryslers. Interesting...

I look under the hood of my Jeep and it says "Daimler-Chrysler".

So they're nothing but Benzes ... =8^D
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; drove that)

[Dori A Schmetterling]

Some years ago I used to receive the monthly mag of the ADAC, the largest
German motorists' organization (equivalent to UK's AA but many more members
and, I suppose the USA's AAA), quite regularly. Once a year they would
publish their breakdown/rescue stats, which made interesting reading. Only
brands that sold more than 10 000 cars per year were included.

It was a very rough-and-ready table but put three Japanese brands at the top
(seemingly most reliable) in every class they were represented. I recall
Mazda and Toyota - maybe Honda was the third.

Thing is, the results were not normalised for usage. Thus Merc S-Class
performed relatively poorly in these tables but what was omitted was the
fact that such cars tended to be very high-mileage vehicles.

Make of it what you will.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Richard Sexton" <***@news.vrx.net> wrote in message news:ebqhek$qhm$***@news.datemas.de...
[...]

Post by Richard Sexton
Yeah it screams "look at me I look a lot like a Mercedes
but use even more expsneive Toyota parts that aren't
engineered to last decades". What a deal.
--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Fred W]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Fred W
The BMW is a better driver's car. The Lexus will be a softer
ride (mushy) and marginally more reliable.

The Lexus will be infinitely more reliable.

define infinitely...

[Brooke]

I would forget the IS 250 and 325I and look at the IS 350 and 330I. I went
through the same decision and ended up with the IS 350. The 330I was a very
nice looking car and had the best ride of anything that I have driven, but
the IS 350 has lots of power and lots of cool gadgets. The IS 350 also has
a very good ride, and since I spend most of my driving time stuck in
traffic, the curve handling performance is not important.


It is also cool to turn on the Power button, disable the VDIM, and smoke
your tires in the IS 350!

I am interested in trading my Acura TL, and have narrowed the most likely
possible replacements to the Lexus is250 and the BMW 325i, both with manual
transmission.
I am interested in whatever input anyone might have. I have owned a number
of Toyotas over the years, but no Lexus and no BMW.
I have heard that Lexus takes Toyota's quality and attention to detail to
the next level, and that in the long run BMW is very expensive to
maintain. I have friends who own both - and swear they wouldn't drive
anything else.
Suggestions, pros, cons, all info would be appreciated.
Many thanks.
Robert

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Robert A. Cibiras
I am interested in trading my Acura TL, and have
narrowed the most likely possible replacements to
the Lexus is250 and the BMW 325i, both with manual
transmission.

Go with the Lexus. Trust me. If I had it to do over
again, I would never have bought this German car.
I will NEVER buy another German car.

-----
Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children 5.7-to-1,
Israel's favor.
Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
---------
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
----------
"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We,
the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
---Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001