Toyota struggles to stop runaway crisis

[john]

"Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
Corp.

Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
vehicles is in tatters. Governments from Tokyo to Washington, clearly
on the muscle, are pressuring the automaker to act openly and quickly.
Toyota's executives, corporate culture and dealer body, each touted by
apologists for their ability to do no wrong, are struggling to manage
a crisis that is expanding faster than they can keep up."

From The Detroit News:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100204/OPINION03/2040354/1148/auto01/Howes--Toyota-struggles-to-stop-runaway-crisis#ixzz0ejImY3Di

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

"Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota<SLAP!>

<YAWN> enough already. You're boring.

[SMS]

Post by john
"Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
Corp.
Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
vehicles is in tatters.

Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is
only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.

What's helping Toyota's reputation is their quick action to fix the
problems. Dealers are staying open 24/7 to fix customer's cars.

All the experts agree that the damage to Toyota's reputation all depends
on how quickly they fix customer's cars and how they treat the customers
during the repair procedure. I don't know if it's the dealers
themselves, or corporate Toyota that's paying for the perks that dealer
are offering, but it's very reassuring to the owners. Most people are
pretty reasonable when it comes to recalls. Tell them about the problem,
fix it without a hassle, and they're happy. It's pretty rare for _any_
car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
complexity of vehicles.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by SMS
Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is
only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.

Save your breath, "s", he's a moron just looking to do some Toyota bashing
to make up for his miserable choices in cars.

He finally gets a chance to gloat probably after owning some of the worst
examples of automotive engineering ever devised.

Makes him feel worthwhile, would be my guess.

[Tegger]

Post by SMS
It's pretty rare for _any_
car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
complexity of vehicles.

The NHTSA currently has 40 "defect" investigations going.

3 cover Toyota.

37 cover other automakers.

[Tegger]

Perhaps in the US, but you neglected to point out that Toyota world
wide total number of recalls for their "defects" is 5.4 MILLION,
involving over 20 deaths and an untold number of injuries.

I thought it was 8.1 million.

And that "20 deaths" figure has not yet been investigated to determine
whether or not these are normal "pedal misapplication" or pedal
malfunction.

So far, the US governemnt officially recognizes 5 deaths, 4 of them
involving a single incident (San Diego cop). And that wasn't even Toyota's
fault, but the fault of the cop and the dealer.

That leaves 1 death, versus over 42,000 total traffic deaths each year in
the US alone. One death is one death too many, but it's hardly an epidemic
for which Toyota should be hung from the nearest tree.

[C. E. White]

Post by Tegger

Post by SMS
It's pretty rare for _any_
car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
complexity of vehicles.

The NHTSA currently has 40 "defect" investigations going.
3 cover Toyota.
37 cover other automakers.

This is a creative (Toyota-like) distrotion of the actual facts.

I am not even sure where you are getting the number "40" for
"investigations going.."

The January defect investigation report is available at
http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/INVMTY-012010-1234.pdf

The way I count things, there are 21 Defects undergoing engineering
analysis and another 20 undergoing preliminary evaluations. None oif
these are related to any of the current Toyota recalls for floor mats,
pedals, or accelertor pedal mechanisms. Only 22 of the 41 are actually
related to private passenger vehicles. I don't think this count has
any real meaning. These are just evaluations of potential problems
based on information from complaints and data provided by the vehicles
manufacturers. They often result in no action.

For the defects undergoing engineering analysis:

Toyota - 1
Ford - 5 (includes 1 Ford/Mazda investigation)
Honda - 3
GM -2
BMW -1
Nissan - 1
Saab -1
Isuzu - 1 (includes 1 Isuzu / Honda investigation)
Kia - 1

For defects undergoing preliminary evaluations:

Toyota - 1
Ford - 1
GM -2
Mazda -1
Saab -1

This is a total of 22 investigations involving light private passenger
vehicles. The other 19 were againsts trucks, buses, tires, and
motorcycles. So out of 22 current investigations agiants private
passenger vehicle manufacturers, Toyota has 2, Ford 6, GM 4, Honda 3,
and Chrysler 0. Does this prove Chrysler is the best manufacturer? And
none of these invstigations is related to any of the current Toyota
recalls. There were never any formal investigations into those
problems becasue Toyota stonewalled NHTSA (their usual tactic). The
acceleration "defects" went straight from Toyota claiming nothing is
wrong to a full fledged disaster. If Toyota would quit trying to cover
up defects and work with NHTSA like most other companies they probaly
could have avoided this whole disaster. Maybe Toyota can get away with
covering things up and stomewalling most of the time, but this time it
bit them in the rear.

Another case of how Toyota treats things - when the rusting Tundra and
Tocoma frames were leading to problems with spare tires failing out,
gas tanks dropping down, brake lines being cut, Toyota claimed this
was not a safety issue and claimed a recall was not necessary. NHTSA
had to threaten Toyota with a manadatory recall before Toyta issued a
"voluntary" recall (and at the same time issued a press release
claiming how great they were for doing it). Typical Toyota - lie,
deny, diverty, claim how good they are. It is all BS. No US car
company can get away with the crap Toyota does all the time.

Ed

[Tegger]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Tegger

Post by SMS
It's pretty rare for _any_
car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
complexity of vehicles.

The NHTSA currently has 40 "defect" investigations going.
3 cover Toyota.
37 cover other automakers.

This is a creative (Toyota-like) distrotion of the actual facts.
I am not even sure where you are getting the number "40" for
"investigations going..."

I read it in the paper the other day. That's what the reporter said.

[C. E. White]

Post by Tegger

Post by C. E. White

Post by Tegger

Post by SMS
It's pretty rare for _any_
car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
complexity of vehicles.

The NHTSA currently has 40 "defect" investigations going.
3 cover Toyota.
37 cover other automakers.

This is a creative (Toyota-like) distrotion of the actual facts.
I am not even sure where you are getting the number "40" for
"investigations going..."

I read it in the paper the other day. That's what the reporter said.

It is easy enough to verify that what I am saying is correct.

http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/INVMTY-012010-1234.pdf

Given the state of journalism today, what you read in the paper is about as
credible as a Mike Hunter post.

Ed

[Tegger]

Post by C. E. White
http://nhthqnwws112.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pu
rsuits/2010/INVMTY-012010-1234.pdf
Given the state of journalism today, what you read in the paper is
about as credible as a Mike Hunter post.

OK, so I was wrong. FORTY-TWO open investigations, not FORTY. I was off by
two.

And I limited myself to the term, "automakers", which may or may not have
been what the article I read actually said. In actual fact the term should
have been, "motor vehicle manufacturers".

Except that you've actually made my point /stronger/ with your link.

I originally said:
3 cover Toyota.
37 cover other automakers.

According to your link, it should actually be:
3 cover Toyota.
39 cover other motor vehicle manufacturers.

[Ashton Crusher]

Post by SMS

Post by john
"Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
Corp.
Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
vehicles is in tatters.

Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is
only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.
What's helping Toyota's reputation is their quick action to fix the
problems. Dealers are staying open 24/7 to fix customer's cars.
All the experts agree that the damage to Toyota's reputation all depends
on how quickly they fix customer's cars and how they treat the customers
during the repair procedure. I don't know if it's the dealers
themselves, or corporate Toyota that's paying for the perks that dealer
are offering, but it's very reassuring to the owners. Most people are
pretty reasonable when it comes to recalls. Tell them about the problem,
fix it without a hassle, and they're happy. It's pretty rare for _any_
car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
complexity of vehicles.

That last sentence is a hoot. When a GM, Ford, or Chrysler had a
recall the "I love Toyota" crowd were all over them, there was no
"It's pretty rare for _any_ car to not have at least a couple of
recalls with the increasing complexity of vehicles." Now that it's
Toyota getting a black eye suddenly a recall is no big deal. And
similarly, even though Toyota has known about this problem for years,
the Toyota loyalists are claiming how "up front" T is and how
"quickly" they are addressing it.... my ass.

[John Kester]

Ford murdered a bunch of its customers by not recalling exploding Ford
Pintos even though they knew about them, because on the accounting
books it looked cheaper to absorb the cost of the burn lawsuits than
to do a recall. Nice.

[Ashton Crusher]

Post by John Kester
Ford murdered a bunch of its customers by not recalling exploding Ford
Pintos even though they knew about them, because on the accounting
books it looked cheaper to absorb the cost of the burn lawsuits than
to do a recall. Nice.

That is completely false. The only "accounting" was in response to a
request by the gvt and using gvt supplied dollar figures. The pintos
were no more prone to exploding then any other car of the day. If
Ford is guilty murdering their customers then so are ALL the other car
markers of the time.

[AZ Nomad]

Post by Ashton Crusher

Post by John Kester
Ford murdered a bunch of its customers by not recalling exploding Ford
Pintos even though they knew about them, because on the accounting
books it looked cheaper to absorb the cost of the burn lawsuits than
to do a recall. Nice.

That is completely false. The only "accounting" was in response to a
request by the gvt and using gvt supplied dollar figures. The pintos
were no more prone to exploding then any other car of the day. If

Bullshit. Despite what you'd like to think, customers weren't torching
their pintos. The fires were due to fuel tank's location and the tendancy
for the filler to rip out leaving a gaping hole.

[John Kester]

Post by Ashton Crusher

Post by John Kester
Ford murdered a bunch of its customers by not recalling exploding Ford
Pintos even though they knew about them, because on the accounting
books it looked cheaper to absorb the cost of the burn lawsuits than
to do a recall. Nice.

That is completely false. The only "accounting" was in response to a
request by the gvt and using gvt supplied dollar figures. The pintos
were no more prone to exploding then any other car of the day. If
Ford is guilty murdering their customers then so are ALL the other car
markers of the time.

You are tragically misinformed. There is a reason that this
particular case is discussed in every Business Ethics college textbook
written in the last 30 years. Ford was aware that rear-impact
collisions could ignite the gas tank, and there are written and
recorded meetings where they determined a re-design was too expensive,
and there are documents showing quantitative analysis of cost of
lawsuits versus redesign. Know what you're talking about before you
dispute such well documented facts, at least do a little research
before spouting off and making a fool of yourself.

Whether or not Ford has done something quite so evil since, I doubt
it.. the publicity around that one was quite high.

[Ashton Crusher]

Post by John Kester

Post by Ashton Crusher

Post by John Kester
Ford murdered a bunch of its customers by not recalling exploding Ford
Pintos even though they knew about them, because on the accounting
books it looked cheaper to absorb the cost of the burn lawsuits than
to do a recall. Nice.

That is completely false. The only "accounting" was in response to a
request by the gvt and using gvt supplied dollar figures. The pintos
were no more prone to exploding then any other car of the day. If
Ford is guilty murdering their customers then so are ALL the other car
markers of the time.

You are tragically misinformed. There is a reason that this
particular case is discussed in every Business Ethics college textbook
written in the last 30 years. Ford was aware that rear-impact
collisions could ignite the gas tank, and there are written and
recorded meetings where they determined a re-design was too expensive,
and there are documents showing quantitative analysis of cost of
lawsuits versus redesign. Know what you're talking about before you
dispute such well documented facts, at least do a little research
before spouting off and making a fool of yourself.
Whether or not Ford has done something quite so evil since, I doubt
it.. the publicity around that one was quite high.

there was nothing inherently dangerous about the pinto. It was
statistically just as safe as any other average car on the road. ANY
car can be made safer, that's a meaningless yardstick to apply. You
can CHOOSE to believe whatever you want.

[jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@]

Post by Ashton Crusher
there was nothing inherently dangerous about the pinto. It was
statistically just as safe as any other average car on the road.

No that is not at all true. It was according to NHTSA no more dangerous than
other cars in the same class. It was (also according to NHTSA) considerably
more dangerous than the average car on the road. It has been estimated that
500 people were burned to death that would not have died if they had been in
an an average car when the accident occurred. The average car on the road at
that time was a tank and the occupants rarely suffered any injuries at all
when another car plowed into the rear at 35 miles an hour.

The problem was that Detroit designed and built compact cars not with the
goal of creating an enduring market for compact cars, but with an eye to
destroying the market for small cars. As a result of this philosophy there
was about a 20 year period where the compact cars Detroit built were just one
disaster after another.

-jim

Post by Ashton Crusher
ANY
car can be made safer, that's a meaningless yardstick to apply. You
can CHOOSE to believe whatever you want.

[John Kester]

Post by Ashton Crusher

Post by John Kester

Post by Ashton Crusher

Post by John Kester
Ford murdered a bunch of its customers by not recalling exploding Ford
Pintos even though they knew about them, because on the accounting
books it looked cheaper to absorb the cost of the burn lawsuits than
to do a recall. Nice.

That is completely false. The only "accounting" was in response to a
request by the gvt and using gvt supplied dollar figures. The pintos
were no more prone to exploding then any other car of the day. If
Ford is guilty murdering their customers then so are ALL the other car
markers of the time.

You are tragically misinformed. There is a reason that this
particular case is discussed in every Business Ethics college textbook
written in the last 30 years. Ford was aware that rear-impact
collisions could ignite the gas tank, and there are written and
recorded meetings where they determined a re-design was too expensive,
and there are documents showing quantitative analysis of cost of
lawsuits versus redesign. Know what you're talking about before you
dispute such well documented facts, at least do a little research
before spouting off and making a fool of yourself.
Whether or not Ford has done something quite so evil since, I doubt
it.. the publicity around that one was quite high.

there was nothing inherently dangerous about the pinto. It was
statistically just as safe as any other average car on the road. ANY
car can be made safer, that's a meaningless yardstick to apply. You
can CHOOSE to believe whatever you want.

Everything I have said is a fact that can be substantiated by you or
anyone else. You are the one who is uninformed about the Pinto
situation and has chosen your own belief over the truth.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by SMS
All the experts agree that the damage to Toyota's reputation all depends
on how quickly they fix customer's cars and how they treat the customers
during the repair procedure. I don't know if it's the dealers themselves,
or corporate Toyota that's paying for the perks that dealer are offering,
but it's very reassuring to the owners. Most people are pretty reasonable
when it comes to recalls. Tell them about the problem, fix it without a
hassle, and they're happy. It's pretty rare for _any_ car to not have at
least a couple of recalls with the increasing complexity of vehicles.

That last sentence is a hoot. When a GM, Ford, or Chrysler had a recall
the "I love Toyota" crowd were all over them, there was no "It's pretty
rare for _any_ car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the
increasing complexity of vehicles."

Ford's are cool. And we're not talking about the Ford Motor Co that got
out of a recall by issuing dash stickers.

They've had their issues (can you say, "First gen Focus"?) but all in all
Ford makes a decent car.

I have had a few Chryslers that were good, too.

But Toyota is my favorite because they are easy to maintain and drive for
a long, long time.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by SMS
Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is only
the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other manufacturers
(Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly. Ford has the
honor of the biggest recall in history.

And got out of it by providing you with a sticker for the dashboard...

[C. E. White]

Post by SMS

Post by john
"Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
Corp.
Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
vehicles is in tatters.

Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with
an automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator
pedals is only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for
other manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more
quickly. Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.

Are you sure? Are you counting the floor mat, pedal reshaping, and
pedal control shim as three separate recalls or one?

Ford "largest recall in history" is for the stupid cruise control
brake switch - which Ford started using becasue of sudden acceleration
accusations. I think you probably could break it down into at least
four different recalls depending ont he vehicle line since the
implementation varied from line to line (some had constant power to
the switch, some didn't, some came from the factory with a fuse, some
didn't etc.). In the end Ford just recalled them all to make sure no
one could complain they were left out (even though there is little
evidence there was a problem outside of the initial relatively small
batch of bad switches Ford and NHTSA identified 3 or 4 years ago).
What Ford did would be the same as Toyota recalling everything they
have sold in the US for fifteen years and replacing all the
acceleartor pedals, even thought we all know only a few are actually a
problem. I think Ford just wanted to make sure the cruise control
switch was permanently out of the press. Probably a good move. If
Toyota had handled the problem with the accelrator pedals this way in
2007, they probably wouldn't be in the press today. Sometimes you just
have to bite the bullet and admit you screwed up.

Ed

[Sekula]

Post by john
"Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
Corp.
Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
vehicles is in tatters. Governments from Tokyo to Washington, clearly
on the muscle, are pressuring the automaker to act openly and quickly.
Toyota's executives, corporate culture and dealer body, each touted by
apologists for their ability to do no wrong, are struggling to manage
a crisis that is expanding faster than they can keep up."
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100204/OPINION03/2040354/1148/auto01/Howes--Toyota-struggles-to-stop-runaway-crisis#ixzz0ejImY3Di

Anyone up for some corporate Hari Kari n rice? :)

[Edwardo Starinski]

Try to masturbate more. It just might keep you out of this forum.

[Hachiroku]

Post by Edwardo Starinski
Try to masturbate more. It just might keep you out of this forum.

You kidding? He's getting good wood from all this.
His car is probably a piece of crap, so he's enjoying himself here.

[Scott in Florida]

Post by john
"Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
Corp.
Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
vehicles is in tatters.

Bull Shit....