2009 Car and Driver 10 Best Cars - no Lexus, no surprise?

[j***@hotmail.com]

What are the key elements of automotive perfection?

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2009_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-2.html

2009 10 Best Cars
- BMW 3-series / M3
- Cadillac CTS / CTS-V
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Honda Accord
- Honda Fit
- Infiniti G37
- Jaguar XF
- Mazda MX-5 Miata
- Porsche Boxster and Cayman
- Volkswagen GTI

[DaveW]

Post by j***@hotmail.com
What are the key elements of automotive perfection?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2009_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-2.html
2009 10 Best Cars
- BMW 3-series / M3
- Cadillac CTS / CTS-V
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Honda Accord
- Honda Fit
- Infiniti G37
- Jaguar XF
- Mazda MX-5 Miata
- Porsche Boxster and Cayman
- Volkswagen GTI

Which of those do you drive, john?

[David Z]

Post by j***@hotmail.com
What are the key elements of automotive perfection?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2009_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-2.html
2009 10 Best Cars
- BMW 3-series / M3
- Cadillac CTS / CTS-V
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Honda Accord
- Honda Fit
- Infiniti G37
- Jaguar XF
- Mazda MX-5 Miata
- Porsche Boxster and Cayman
- Volkswagen GTI

No surpise at all. I used to be an avid C&D reader up until they early
1990s. Before that, I would eagerly await my monthly issue and read it
cover to cover. Back then they had great humor, perspective and
understanding of the needs of the average consumer/car enthusiast.

Then Csaba Csere took over and the magazine became a R&T wannabe. Lot's of
articles about impracticle phallic symbols like Corvettes, etc. That's when
I dropped my subscription. I still look at C&D when I'm in a library and
each time it looks more and more like R&T.

In fact, I just read that Csaba Csere resigned and will probably be going
over to R&T.

http://jalopnik.com/5111232/csaba-csere-car-and-driver-editor+in+chief-resigns

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by David Z
No surpise at all. I used to be an avid C&D reader up until they early
1990s. Before that, I would eagerly await my monthly issue and read it
cover to cover. Back then they had great humor, perspective and
understanding of the needs of the average consumer/car enthusiast.

My personal favorite: from the 10Best Cars from Third World
Countries--Number 3, Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia.

[Mike Hunter]

DUH GM no longer sells the cars they sold in the seventies, same as the
imports no longer sells the junk they sold back then LOL

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by David Z
No surpise at all. I used to be an avid C&D reader up until they early
1990s. Before that, I would eagerly await my monthly issue and read it
cover to cover. Back then they had great humor, perspective and
understanding of the needs of the average consumer/car enthusiast.

My personal favorite: from the 10Best Cars from Third World
Countries--Number 3, Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by David Z
No surpise at all. I used to be an avid C&D reader up until they early
1990s. Before that, I would eagerly await my monthly issue and read it
cover to cover. Back then they had great humor, perspective and
understanding of the needs of the average consumer/car enthusiast.

My personal favorite: from the 10Best Cars from Third World
Countries--Number 3, Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia.

DUH GM no longer sells the cars they sold in the seventies, same as the
imports no longer sells the junk they sold back then LOL

You have zero clue about the world going on around you, don't you.

10Best Cars from Third World Countries:

3) Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia

[David Z]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by David Z
No surpise at all. I used to be an avid C&D reader up until they early
1990s. Before that, I would eagerly await my monthly issue and read it
cover to cover. Back then they had great humor, perspective and
understanding of the needs of the average consumer/car enthusiast.

My personal favorite: from the 10Best Cars from Third World
Countries--Number 3, Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia.

I haven't a clue what you're talking about and I suspect that most readers
here don't either.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by David Z

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
My personal favorite: from the 10Best Cars from Third World
Countries--Number 3, Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia.

I haven't a clue what you're talking about and I suspect that most readers
here don't either.

Some of us get it.

[David Z]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by David Z

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
My personal favorite: from the 10Best Cars from Third World
Countries--Number 3, Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia.

I haven't a clue what you're talking about and I suspect that most
readers here don't either.

Some of us get it.

Or at least think you do.

[ray]

Post by David Z

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by David Z

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
My personal favorite: from the 10Best Cars from Third World
Countries--Number 3, Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia.

I haven't a clue what you're talking about and I suspect that most
readers here don't either.

Some of us get it.

Or at least think you do.

an old C&D 10 best issue had an article about the 10 best cars from
Third World Countries. They were able to make fun of Chevettes and
Georgia at the same time. Nevermind, it's not funny anymore.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by ray

Post by David Z

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Some of us get it.

Or at least think you do.

an old C&D 10 best issue had an article about the 10 best cars from
Third World Countries. They were able to make fun of Chevettes and
Georgia at the same time. Nevermind, it's not funny anymore.

If you have to explain it...

[Elder]

In article <fy8gl.3226$%***@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>, ***@snet.net
says...

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by David Z

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
My personal favorite: from the 10Best Cars from Third World
Countries--Number 3, Chevrolet Chevette, Lakewood, Georgia.

I haven't a clue what you're talking about and I suspect that most readers
here don't either.

Some of us get it.

Remember when American companies manufactured cars?

[Ad absurdum per aspera]

No surprise at all.  I used to be an avid C&D reader up until they early
1990s.  Before that, I would eagerly await my monthly issue and read it
cover to cover.  Back then they had great humor, perspective and
understanding of the needs of the average consumer/car enthusiast.

At one point they had a price ceiling on the ten best list. Their
explicit rationale was that $40,000 or whatever it was (this was a
while ago) *ought* to get you a car that leaves little to be desired,
and the purpose of the review was to sort out the pros and cons of the
sort of cars most of us working stiffs might actually buy.

I still look at C&D when I'm in a library

I went from subscriber to irregular dentist-office-and-barbershop
flipper-througher circa an ownership change that they underwent
sometime in the early 90s. That was about the time the identity
merchandise started appearing in the back; and Jean Lindamood went to,
where was it, Automobile magazine; and the interjectory [Ed.] seemed
to blunt his edge.

It still has some things that are humorously written (after all these
years the whole genre still owes a great debt to Tom McCahill, late of
Mechanix Illustrated) and sometimes informative. The days when its
arrival in the mailbox was by definition a fine day are long gone,
which admittedly might have as much to do with me as with the
magazine...

--Joe

[Steve]

Post by j***@hotmail.com
What are the key elements of automotive perfection?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2009_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-2.html
2009 10 Best Cars
- BMW 3-series / M3
- Cadillac CTS / CTS-V
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Honda Accord
- Honda Fit
- Infiniti G37
- Jaguar XF
- Mazda MX-5 Miata
- Porsche Boxster and Cayman
- Volkswagen GTI

Typical C&D mish-mash nonsense. If I had to guess, I'd say that they
were trying to compile a list of cars that are "driver's cars" where the
act and pleasure of driving counts for more than just getting from A to
B reliably. But the presence of two Hondas and a VW blows that theory
all to hell. Plus there are other Porsches that fill the bill better
than the Boxster/Cayman. Plus there are far better cars that aren't even
on the list (notably the Viper and Challenger SRT-8, any Benz product,
any exotic).

But the absence of a Lexus, per se, is no surprise. It says
"high_performance" right in the link, which pretty much rules out a
luxury-only brand.

Of course that *should* also rule out econoboxes like Fit and Accord.

I'm going to quit trying to make sense out of nonsense now....

[HLS]

Post by Steve
I'm going to quit trying to make sense out of nonsense now....

I think this is good advice. Lots of people see cars in different ways, and
some of the
hi po rigs out there may be fun, but they may also be a POS as far as
dependability,
maintenance, resale, etc.

I want to buy a Porsche Cayman, just from its heritage and looks, but will
hold off
until I DRIVE one. And see why there are so many on the block at $20,000
discount
with less than 5K miles on the odo.

[N8N]

Post by j***@hotmail.com
What are the key elements of automotive perfection?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_w...
2009 10 Best Cars
- BMW 3-series / M3
- Cadillac CTS / CTS-V
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Honda Accord
- Honda Fit
- Infiniti G37
- Jaguar XF
- Mazda MX-5 Miata
- Porsche Boxster and Cayman
- Volkswagen GTI

Typical  C&D mish-mash nonsense. If I had to guess, I'd say that they
were trying to compile a list of cars that are "driver's cars" where the
act and pleasure of driving counts for more than just getting from A to
B reliably. But the presence of two Hondas and a VW blows that theory
all to hell.  

Have you *driven* a VW? They really are head and shoulders above
their competition, and have been since the introduction of the first
GTI.

Plus there are other Porsches that fill the bill better
than the Boxster/Cayman.

Possibly, but they are out of reach for the average person.

Plus there are far better cars that aren't even
on the list (notably the Viper and Challenger SRT-8, any Benz product,
any exotic).

I think I'd take a Cayman over any of those cars you list.

Nate

[PerfectReign]

Typical  C&D mish-mash nonsense. If I had to guess, I'd say that they
were trying to compile a list of cars that are "driver's cars" where the
act and pleasure of driving counts for more than just getting from A to
B reliably. But the presence of two Hondas and a VW blows that theory
all to hell.

Have you *driven* a VW?  They really are head and shoulders above
their competition, and have been since the introduction of the first
GTI.

I was stuck in one for 12 years. Fucking tiny POS!

I'd take a Toyota GS450 over one anyday.

[Nate Nagel]

Post by PerfectReign

Post by N8N

Post by Steve
Typical C&D mish-mash nonsense. If I had to guess, I'd say that they
were trying to compile a list of cars that are "driver's cars" where the
act and pleasure of driving counts for more than just getting from A to
B reliably. But the presence of two Hondas and a VW blows that theory
all to hell.

Have you *driven* a VW? They really are head and shoulders above
their competition, and have been since the introduction of the first
GTI.

I was stuck in one for 12 years. Fucking tiny POS!
I'd take a Toyota GS450 over one anyday.

Apples to oranges. I would submit that the newer VWs are too large for
my taste. VW's niche is making small cars that manage to not feel like
you didn't buy one because you're poor, but because you didn't want/need
a larger car. A Lexus GS would be better compared to, say, a Pontiac G8
or a BMW 5-series than any VW (save maybe the Phaeton, but that IMHO was
a mistake and a waste of time/money.)

nate

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article

Post by N8N
Have you *driven* a VW?

Yep. Owned one.

And after that, I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been
there, done that.)

And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...

....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.

At some point, without unlimited funds, you are at a decision point:
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.

Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.

Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.

And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for
it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German
car mistress to be in the mood to play.

[Nate Nagel]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by N8N
Have you *driven* a VW?

Yep. Owned one.
And after that, I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been
there, done that.)
And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...
....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.
Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.
Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.
And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for
it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German
car mistress to be in the mood to play.

I don't get it. I drove cheap beater VWs for years and other than a
Corrado or Passat (of which I've owned neither, although SWMBO had a
Corrado) they seem to be the Dodge Dart of German cars, albeit a little
more fun to drive (unless you managed to find a Dart with a 340 and HD
suspension) Parts for 80's WCVWs are for the most part pretty
reasonably priced as well and working on them yourself is not all that
challenging, once you get a couple special tools (notably a cutaway
socket for the strut nuts, a set of triple squares, and a few other
minor things.) I had four different VWs and my mom another, as well as
several friends who also had various models, so it's a little hard to
say "I got lucky with my car, most of them aren't like that." The only
reason I don't have one today is the lack of good junkyards in my area,
nor did the parts stores stock anything for them - everything had to be
mail ordered; the VWs I like are all either still on the road or have
all been crushed a decade ago. I could easily be tempted by, say, an
'81 Scirocco S however.

Now if you insist on an automatic transmixer, yeah, those are not the
most reliable. Automatics are not a strong point of really any German car.

Now your characterization might better apply to something like a
Porsche, but I ran the cost/benefit analysis and went ahead and bought
an old 944 anyway. And, really, if you just plan for a couple grand
worth of maintenance/minor repairs a year, it'll serve you well and
you'll be much happier than you would in, say, a contemporary Celebrity
and your cost of operation still won't come close to approaching a new
car payment.

nate

[Steve]

N8N wrote:
\

Post by N8N
Have you *driven* a VW? They really are head and shoulders above
their competition, and have been since the introduction of the first
GTI.

Well, I drove the first GTI, which is why I haven't driven one since. I
like keeping my fillings *in* my teeth when I start the engine....

Yes, I know modern VWs are a far cry from a Wabbit GTI, but I still have
never been able to get the "VW = crap" association washed out of my brain.

[N8N]

Post by Steve
\

Have you *driven* a VW?  They really are head and shoulders above
their competition, and have been since the introduction of the first
GTI.

Well, I drove the first GTI, which is why I haven't driven one since. I
like keeping my fillings *in* my teeth when I start the engine....
Yes, I know modern VWs are a far cry from a Wabbit GTI, but I still have
never been able to get the "VW = crap" association washed out of my brain.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess, the one car that I've owned and sold that
I regret selling to this day was an '84 Scirocco. I had a Wabbit GTI
as well, and the only reason the 'roccet gets the nod was that the
Scirocco was German built while the Wabbit was Westmoreland built, and
therefore had a more attractive dash and interior. Other than that
they're pretty much the same car, and I'm an idiot for selling the
'roccet

nate

[Steve]

Post by N8N

Post by Steve
\

Post by N8N
Have you *driven* a VW? They really are head and shoulders above
their competition, and have been since the introduction of the first
GTI.

Well, I drove the first GTI, which is why I haven't driven one since. I
like keeping my fillings *in* my teeth when I start the engine....
Yes, I know modern VWs are a far cry from a Wabbit GTI, but I still have
never been able to get the "VW = crap" association washed out of my brain.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess, the one car that I've owned and sold that
I regret selling to this day was an '84 Scirocco. I had a Wabbit GTI
as well, and the only reason the 'roccet gets the nod was that the
Scirocco was German built while the Wabbit was Westmoreland built, and
therefore had a more attractive dash and interior. Other than that
they're pretty much the same car, and I'm an idiot for selling the
'roccet
nate

I had a cow-orker who owned a circa '84 GTI, and kept that thing until
maybe 2001? 2002? I forget. In its day, it was a scary-fast and nimble
little thing (if you could handle the gobs of torque-steer). But I lost
track of how many accessory brackets (PS, AC, alternator) shook
themselves to pieces on that car- that was the ROUGHEST 4-banger I've
ever felt, and that includes the VW-based engine in my Dad's
gone-and-not-missed 78 Plymouth Horizon (which also tended to break
alternator brackets and carb mounting flanges from the vibration). I can
understand the desire not to waste a few horsepower on balance shafts
and just live with the natural 2nd order imbalance of an inline-4, but
HOLY COW! The early Mopar 2.2 had no balance shafts either, and it
wasn't half that unpleasant.

[N8N]

Post by Steve

Post by N8N

Post by Steve
\

Have you *driven* a VW?  They really are head and shoulders above
their competition, and have been since the introduction of the first
GTI.

Well, I drove the first GTI, which is why I haven't driven one since. I
like keeping my fillings *in* my teeth when I start the engine....
Yes, I know modern VWs are a far cry from a Wabbit GTI, but I still have
never been able to get the "VW = crap" association washed out of my brain.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess, the one car that I've owned and sold that
I regret selling to this day was an '84 Scirocco.  I had a Wabbit GTI
as well, and the only reason the 'roccet gets the nod was that the
Scirocco was German built while the Wabbit was Westmoreland built, and
therefore had a more attractive dash and interior.  Other than that
they're pretty much the same car, and I'm an idiot for selling the
'roccet
nate

I had a cow-orker who owned a circa '84 GTI, and kept that thing until
maybe 2001? 2002? I forget. In its day, it was a scary-fast and nimble
little thing (if you could handle the gobs of torque-steer). But I lost
track of how many accessory brackets (PS, AC, alternator) shook
themselves to pieces on that car- that was the ROUGHEST 4-banger I've
ever felt, and that includes the VW-based engine in my Dad's
gone-and-not-missed 78 Plymouth Horizon (which also tended to break
alternator brackets and carb mounting flanges from the vibration). I can
understand the desire not to waste a few horsepower on balance shafts
and just live with the natural 2nd order imbalance of an inline-4, but
HOLY COW! The early Mopar 2.2 had no balance shafts either, and it
wasn't half that unpleasant.

There was something wrong then, because I don't recall any of my old
VWs being noticeably unpleasant. There's a bit of a buzz, yes, but no
worse than, say, a GM 3400. They did come from the factory with
pretty weak front engine mounts (front of engine, that is, not front
of car) in what I assume was an attempt to tame what vibration there
was. Unfortunately they were weak enough that on an older car they'd
need to be replaced otherwise they'd go metal to metal with
predictable results. Must have just been the rubber degrading over
time, as it wasn't in an area that was prone to getting sprayed with
oil from a leaky seal/gasket/whatever. The right fix would be to use
a mount with stiffer rubber from a Diesel-engined car, but many shops
would simply use the part that the book told them to, which would fail
again, etc. Also when replacing a mount one should loosen all of them
and rock the engine/trans around to let it settle; installing a mount
without doing this could make it fail quicker than it would otherwise.

I ran a Diesel mount on my 'roccet and didn't notice it being
particularly unpleasant. If you tried to give it any appreciable
amount of throttle below 1500 RPM it would buzz like hell but I
wouldn't consider that being particularly kind to the bearings, and
the solution to that problem is easy. Balance shafts wouldn't have
helped with that anyway - that's not a balance issue, that's the
operator lugging the engine combined with a low cylinder count. My
944 has a 2.5 liter 4-cyl. (*with* balance shafts) and it's even worse
in that respect.

nate

[Ad absurdum per aspera]

Post by Steve
Of course that *should* also rule out econoboxes like Fit and Accord.

Don't look now, but the Accord is EPA classified as a "large" car, and
with the V6 (three liters and 270 horsepower!) it can be a pretty
quick one too.

Getting back to the Ten Best list, though: I know (as if there were
ever much doubt) that if I throw enough money at the problem I can get
a truly fine automobile. One of the things the magazines can do is go
through the lesser ranks of cars, kissing all the frogs so they can
tell you which one is the prince. That used to be a goal of the ten
best list (and still is of their occasional category comparos).

Conversely, putting an M3, Corvette, etc. on the same list with a Fit
or even an Accord makes you wonder about the purpose of the list.
Best in each of several classes, maybe? They certainly don't compete
with each other even vaguely...

--Joe

[Canuck57]

Post by Ad absurdum per aspera

Post by Steve
Of course that *should* also rule out econoboxes like Fit and Accord.

Don't look now, but the Accord is EPA classified as a "large" car, and
with the V6 (three liters and 270 horsepower!) it can be a pretty
quick one too.
Getting back to the Ten Best list, though: I know (as if there were
ever much doubt) that if I throw enough money at the problem I can get
a truly fine automobile. One of the things the magazines can do is go
through the lesser ranks of cars, kissing all the frogs so they can
tell you which one is the prince. That used to be a goal of the ten
best list (and still is of their occasional category comparos).
Conversely, putting an M3, Corvette, etc. on the same list with a Fit
or even an Accord makes you wonder about the purpose of the list.
Best in each of several classes, maybe? They certainly don't compete
with each other even vaguely...
--Joe

I would agree. The list is suspect. If it were top of it's class then why
would not the Accord be in there? I drove one once, and would have bought
it but I couldn't get a model with the needed extra inch of headroom.
Sporty and nice ride, I can see why they sell.

[PerfectReign]

Post by Ad absurdum per aspera

Post by Steve
Of course that *should* also rule out econoboxes like Fit and Accord.

Don't look now, but the Accord is EPA classified as a "large" car, and
with the V6 (three liters and 270 horsepower!)   it can be a pretty
quick one too.

Who, exactly pays off the EPA to define these? I drove a Maxima for several
years. I cannot believe people put that subcompact as a "midsize."

An accord as a "large" car? WTF??

[Nate Nagel]

Post by PerfectReign

Post by Ad absurdum per aspera

Post by Steve
Of course that *should* also rule out econoboxes like Fit and Accord.

Don't look now, but the Accord is EPA classified as a "large" car, and
with the V6 (three liters and 270 horsepower!) it can be a pretty
quick one too.

Who, exactly pays off the EPA to define these? I drove a Maxima for several
years. I cannot believe people put that subcompact as a "midsize."

Um, a Maxima *is* a midsize car. It's practically cavernous inside. Do
you call a Peterbilt a "light truck?" A Fit is a subcompact. A Maxima
is most certainly not.

I'd hate to hear your opinion of a Lotus Elise, but whatever it is it
won't make me lust after one any less.

nate

[PerfectReign]

Post by Nate Nagel

Post by PerfectReign

Post by Ad absurdum per aspera

Post by Steve
Of course that *should* also rule out econoboxes like Fit and Accord.

Don't look now, but the Accord is EPA classified as a "large" car, and
with the V6 (three liters and 270 horsepower!)   it can be a pretty
quick one too.

Who, exactly pays off the EPA to define these? I drove a Maxima for
several years. I cannot believe people put that subcompact as a
"midsize."

Um, a Maxima *is* a midsize car.

Not unless they make them way bigger than our '98 was. I fucking hit my head
on the roof more times than I care to remember. Also, even with the seat
all the way back, my knees would be uncomfortably hitting the center
console while trying to avoid the steering wheel.

Post by Nate Nagel
It's practically cavernous inside.

You a midgit?

Post by Nate Nagel
Do
you call a Peterbilt a "light truck?"

No - my Avalanche is a light truck.

Post by Nate Nagel
A Fit is a subcompact.  A Maxima
is most certainly not.
I'd hate to hear your opinion of a Lotus Elise, but whatever it is it
won't make me lust after one any less.

[Ad absurdum per aspera]

Post by PerfectReign

Post by Nate Nagel
Um, a Maxima *is* a midsize car.

Not unless they make them way bigger than our '98 was.

They do, at least for some values of "way". (And sometimes
"weigh.")

Most models tend to expand over the years, sometimes for the better.
New models and sometimes whole new brands are then introduced to take
their place at the bottom.

The Accord that were were talking about it, in its eighth generation,
some thirty inches longer ("and everything in proportion") than the
first one. The size classes assigned by the EPA are defined in terms
of passenger and cargo volume (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/
info.shtml#sizeclasses). Admittedly it is toward the bottom of what's
considered a large car by the EPA, but it is in that category. (The
slightly smaller coupe is still considered midsize.)

The current and immediately past Maximas are slightly but noticeably
bigger than your fourth-generation 1998 was -- two or three inches in
every dimension as well as rather less of a "three box" shape -- and
I think they're considered midsize cars butting their heads against
the "large" threshold.

Design makes a big difference too, in both the perception and the
usability of the space, and usually though not always this improves
over the years.

I personally think the "large" category is too broad and
undifferentiated, but the cars in it are hardly what I'd consider
"econoboxes" either.

Cheers,
--Joe

[Steve]

Post by Ad absurdum per aspera

Post by PerfectReign

Post by Nate Nagel
Um, a Maxima *is* a midsize car.

Not unless they make them way bigger than our '98 was.

They do, at least for some values of "way". (And sometimes
"weigh.")

Actually, didn't the Maxima get *downsized* sometime within the last 6-7
years, basically swapping places with the Altima as it grew to
balloon-like proportions (and appearance)?

[Ad absurdum per aspera]

Post by Steve
Actually, didn't the Maxima get *downsized* sometime within the last 6-7
years, basically swapping places with the Altima as it grew to
balloon-like proportions (and appearance)?

The generations of the two lines leapfrog each other by a couple of
years, and there was a period in the early 2000s when the Altima was
very subtly bigger.

The '09 Maxima is a tiny bit smaller than the outgoing generation of
Maxima in height and length but is a bit taller. It's a little wider
than the present Altima but shares the same "platform." They rated it
at some 20 more horsepower too, with the best engine option. I think
that instead of "swapping places" with the Altima they were trying to
position it as a higher product -- I'm tempted to dust off the
obsolete term "personal luxury car" for the new Maxima, despite its
four door configuration.

Supposedly the Maxima has a better chassis and suspension and brakes,
as well as more amenities and gadgets, compared to even a high option
Altima. It's also noticeably more expensive (well, sure).

Of course set its design and construction in motion before the
economy went off in the weeds. Reading between the lines on the Web,
it looks like a lot of people are weighing its merits against the 3.5-
liter Altima (a couple hundred pounds and several thousand dollars
lighter, and still with the possibility of a manual tranny) as well as
against other makes. Dunno if that's quite what Nissan had in mind;
but then, the present state of the economy is not really what anybody
had in mind...

--Joe

[PerfectReign]

Post by Ad absurdum per aspera

Post by Steve
Actually, didn't the Maxima get *downsized* sometime within the last 6-7
years, basically swapping places with the Altima as it grew to
balloon-like proportions (and appearance)?

The generations of the two lines leapfrog each other by a couple of
years, and there was a period in the early 2000s when the Altima was
very subtly bigger.
The '09 Maxima is a tiny bit smaller than the outgoing generation of
Maxima in height and length but is a bit taller. It's a little wider
than the present Altima but shares the same "platform." They rated it
at some 20 more horsepower too, with the best engine option. I think
that instead of "swapping places" with the Altima they were trying to
position it as a higher product -- I'm tempted to dust off the
obsolete term "personal luxury car" for the new Maxima, despite its
four door configuration.
Supposedly the Maxima has a better chassis and suspension and brakes,
as well as more amenities and gadgets, compared to even a high option
Altima. It's also noticeably more expensive (well, sure).
Of course set its design and construction in motion before the
economy went off in the weeds. Reading between the lines on the Web,
it looks like a lot of people are weighing its merits against the 3.5-
liter Altima (a couple hundred pounds and several thousand dollars
lighter, and still with the possibility of a manual tranny) as well as
against other makes. Dunno if that's quite what Nissan had in mind;
but then, the present state of the economy is not really what anybody
had in mind...
--Joe

Interesting analysis. I hadn't thought of things in that way. As for the
Maxima, I like that it is getting taller. If I were into buying a car for
me (as opposed to my wife) I'd look at either the HHR, the Honda Passport
or the Scion xB. Those all look nice and tall.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by PerfectReign
Who, exactly pays off the EPA to define these? I drove a Maxima for several
years. I cannot believe people put that subcompact as a "midsize."

Typical asswipe.

If the Maxima is a "subcompact", as you put it, then what is "midsize"
in your world?

Oh, I see--you intended followups to go only to the GM newsgroup,
therefore "midsize" to you is a extended bed crew cab Silverado.

Cro-Magnon man walks among us.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
If the Maxima is a "subcompact", as you put it, then what is "midsize"
in your world?
Oh, I see--you intended followups to go only to the GM newsgroup,
therefore "midsize" to you is a extended bed crew cab Silverado.
Cro-Magnon man walks among us.

Last full sized car was the '59 Caddy Fleetwood

[PerfectReign]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by PerfectReign
Who, exactly pays off the EPA to define these? I drove a Maxima for
several years. I cannot believe people put that subcompact as a
"midsize."

Typical asswipe.
If the Maxima is a "subcompact", as you put it, then what is "midsize"
in your world?

Okay, compact.

Midsize is like the Buick Regal or Infiniti M45.

Fullsize is maybe a Ford Crown Victoria.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Oh, I see--you intended followups to go only to the GM newsgroup,
therefore "midsize" to you is a extended bed crew cab Silverado.

No, you add the extended bed, and it makes it full size.

As for the fu only to alt.autos.gm, my newsreader (KNode) automatically
takes out the xposting.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Cro-Magnon man walks among us.

Nice attempt at an insult. (look at my x-face)

[ray]

Post by Ad absurdum per aspera

Post by Steve
Of course that *should* also rule out econoboxes like Fit and Accord.

Don't look now, but the Accord is EPA classified as a "large" car, and
with the V6 (three liters and 270 horsepower!) it can be a pretty
quick one too.
Getting back to the Ten Best list, though: I know (as if there were
ever much doubt) that if I throw enough money at the problem I can get
a truly fine automobile. One of the things the magazines can do is go
through the lesser ranks of cars, kissing all the frogs so they can
tell you which one is the prince. That used to be a goal of the ten
best list (and still is of their occasional category comparos).
Conversely, putting an M3, Corvette, etc. on the same list with a Fit
or even an Accord makes you wonder about the purpose of the list.
Best in each of several classes, maybe? They certainly don't compete
with each other even vaguely...
--Joe

C&D for a couple years added a category to their 10 Best list for each
car, but it's always been - these cars are the cars that we think are
THE BEST. Pretty much about the only rule is that it's average new car
price x 2.5 or so, ruling out Ferraris and whatnot because any car
that's 10x the average price of a car SHOULD be awesome.

It's their list, they can make up the rules however they want. :)

Ray

[Mike Hunter]

Toyota buyers do not read Car & Driver. That is a car guy magazine. They
read CR to decide what cars to buy, much like they way they choose their
appliances or TVs. ;)

Post by j***@hotmail.com
What are the key elements of automotive perfection?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2009_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-2.html
2009 10 Best Cars
- BMW 3-series / M3
- Cadillac CTS / CTS-V
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Honda Accord
- Honda Fit
- Infiniti G37
- Jaguar XF
- Mazda MX-5 Miata
- Porsche Boxster and Cayman
- Volkswagen GTI

[C. E. White]

I recently saw a Car and Driver article on Cars.com where they went back and
looked at past Top 10 selections and more or less trashed many of their own
past picks. So why should I think this years "10 Ten" is credible?

Ed

Post by j***@hotmail.com
What are the key elements of automotive perfection?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2009_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-2.html
2009 10 Best Cars
- BMW 3-series / M3
- Cadillac CTS / CTS-V
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Honda Accord
- Honda Fit
- Infiniti G37
- Jaguar XF
- Mazda MX-5 Miata
- Porsche Boxster and Cayman
- Volkswagen GTI

[man of machines]

i got a laugh the other day when a detroit newspaper showed a lexus getting 16 mpg's and a yukon getting 22 on the highway

Post by j***@hotmail.com
What are the key elements of automotive perfection?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2009_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-2.html
2009 10 Best Cars
- BMW 3-series / M3
- Cadillac CTS / CTS-V
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Honda Accord
- Honda Fit
- Infiniti G37
- Jaguar XF
- Mazda MX-5 Miata
- Porsche Boxster and Cayman
- Volkswagen GTI

[who]

Post by man of machines
i got a laugh the other day when a detroit newspaper showed a lexus getting
16 mpg's and a yukon getting 22 on the highway

When you pay that much for a vehicle, MPG is very secondary.