Sticking Accelerator Built to Toyota Specification. Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi Pedals Not Affected.

[john]

Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.

"CTS made the pedals at issue. But Khilnani stressed several times to
Wall Street analysts that the pedals CTS made for Toyota were “to
their specifications.” Pedals that CTS makes for other automakers,
including Honda, Nissan, Chrysler and Mitsubishi, he said, are based
on different designs for each automaker. "

http://www.freep.com/article/20100128/BUSINESS01/100128033/1331/

[hls]

"john" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5c581e0b-de16-4265-950e-***@k18g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
*********
It will be interesting to see. We have had people post here that the pedals
did not actually stick...if this is the case, the problem (if there really
is one)
has to be the interface or electronic control unit, not any mechanical
device.

Time will tell

[john]

I think there may be multiple causes to this sudden acceleration
problem. I do believe electronics is a primary suspect, according to
the Alberto lawsuit.

It will be interesting to see.  We have had people post here that the pedals
did not actually stick...if this is the case, the problem (if there really
is one)
has to be the interface or electronic control unit, not any mechanical
device.
Time will tell

[Vic Smith]

Post by john
I think there may be multiple causes to this sudden acceleration
problem. I do believe electronics is a primary suspect, according to
the Alberto lawsuit.

Probably. I'm a bit surprised by all this concentration on "gas
pedals." I suspect that gas pedals and linkage aren't too
mind-boggling. They've been around a long time.
I had a an '85 throttle body 2.0 Cavalier that would "unintentionally
accelerate." Wife was using it for her commute and complained about
it, but I shrugged it off until it happened to me when I was driving
it. Had to keep it braked hard at a stop, and it would accelerate to
about 40 mph when you released the brake. It came and went.
I was going to throw a new throttle body on it but the car just died
on her on the way home from work the next day.
Right in front of a garage, and a couple guys pushed her off the
street and into the garage. That's how I found my mech, just in time,
as I knew nothing about the new electronic controls then.
New ECU fixed it.
There's stuff going on with modern cars that is *really* hard to
diagnose. That's why I don't like drive-by-wire, and ignition key
lockouts or interference with a mechanical switch engine shutdown.
Fail-safe can't be controlled by microchips. They are too flaky.

--Vic

[dr_jeff]

Post by Vic Smith

Post by john
I think there may be multiple causes to this sudden acceleration
problem. I do believe electronics is a primary suspect, according to
the Alberto lawsuit.

Probably. I'm a bit surprised by all this concentration on "gas
pedals." I suspect that gas pedals and linkage aren't too
mind-boggling. They've been around a long time.
I had a an '85 throttle body 2.0 Cavalier that would "unintentionally
accelerate." Wife was using it for her commute and complained about
it, but I shrugged it off until it happened to me when I was driving
it. Had to keep it braked hard at a stop, and it would accelerate to
about 40 mph when you released the brake. It came and went.
I was going to throw a new throttle body on it but the car just died
on her on the way home from work the next day.
Right in front of a garage, and a couple guys pushed her off the
street and into the garage. That's how I found my mech, just in time,
as I knew nothing about the new electronic controls then.
New ECU fixed it.
There's stuff going on with modern cars that is *really* hard to
diagnose. That's why I don't like drive-by-wire, and ignition key
lockouts or interference with a mechanical switch engine shutdown.
Fail-safe can't be controlled by microchips. They are too flaky.
--Vic

Tell that to the pilot of the Airbus A-320.

I have to disagree that fly-by-wire is too flaky or that microchips are
too flaky. There are certainly bugs, but those bugs will be worked out.
Computers can react far faster than humans. Computers control a lot of
critical function; car engines are just one of them.

Jeff

[Vic Smith]

Post by dr_jeff
Tell that to the pilot of the Airbus A-320.
I have to disagree that fly-by-wire is too flaky or that microchips are
too flaky. There are certainly bugs, but those bugs will be worked out.
Computers can react far faster than humans. Computers control a lot of
critical function; car engines are just one of them.
Jeff

I'd have to see the cost and quality of the A-320 control chips, and
their engineering and programming to buy that comparison.
For all I know the chips controlling the acceleration in drive-by-wire
cars are sourced from the same outfit making chips for Mr Coffee.

--Vic

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

Post by dr_jeff
Tell that to the pilot of the Airbus A-320.
I have to disagree that fly-by-wire is too flaky or that microchips are
too flaky. There are certainly bugs, but those bugs will be worked out.
Computers can react far faster than humans. Computers control a lot of
critical function; car engines are just one of them.
Jeff

I'd have to see the cost and quality of the A-320 control chips, and their
engineering and programming to buy that comparison. For all I know the
chips controlling the acceleration in drive-by-wire cars are sourced from
the same outfit making chips for Mr Coffee.
--Vic

Same aerospace mfgr as in the other post:

We made fuel controls for Pratt and Whitney and, where spec'd Rolls Royce.
This was a pretty amaziing piece of equipment for the early 1980's. It was
two complete engine controls married together in one big housing; Channel
A and Channel B. Exact identical units.

One day I had nothing to do, and a friend of mine gave me the Theory of
Operation manual, about as thick as a bible. Reading through it, I
discovered this:

It was a dual-redundant engine control. What this means is that there is
an A channel and a B channel. However, on a failure of a component in the
main channel (A), operation did not swicth over to the B channel. Instead,
a supervisory module detected the failed component and switched operation
of that FUNCTION to the B channel. Back then they called the system RAM
the 'scratch pad', so if a failure were detected in the scracth pad of
channel A, scratch pad operation was transferred to the scratch pad of
channel B. So you still had A channel operating primarily with one
function of channel B.

It took a massive failure of channel A, or three separate failures to
cause control to pass entirely to channel B.

In case of a massive failure of the engine control where neither channel A
nor channel B were operational, the engine was sent into "limp mode" and
fuel delivery was performed by a fail-safe valve that opened on failure of
the engine control. This was a hammer-head unit with rudimentary fuel
regulation; it basically dumped fuel into the engine in a failure mode
metering method that kept the engine running as long as there was fuel in
order to make it to the nearest landing field.

I would imagine Airbus and the Boeing models employing Fly By Wire have
backups of the backups.

[dr_jeff]

Post by Vic Smith

Post by dr_jeff
Tell that to the pilot of the Airbus A-320.
I have to disagree that fly-by-wire is too flaky or that microchips are
too flaky. There are certainly bugs, but those bugs will be worked out.
Computers can react far faster than humans. Computers control a lot of
critical function; car engines are just one of them.
Jeff

I'd have to see the cost and quality of the A-320 control chips, and
their engineering and programming to buy that comparison.
For all I know the chips controlling the acceleration in drive-by-wire
cars are sourced from the same outfit making chips for Mr Coffee.
--Vic

So? I haven't seen reports of runaway Mr. Coffees. I am sure the chips
are made to high quality standards. The issue really is the programming
and quality assurance (which is testing of how well the programs work,
particularly in unexpected situations). I don't know what Toyota and
other car makers do in that regard.

[Al Falfa]

Post by Vic Smith

Post by dr_jeff
Tell that to the pilot of the Airbus A-320.
I have to disagree that fly-by-wire is too flaky or that microchips are
too flaky. There are certainly bugs, but those bugs will be worked out.
Computers can react far faster than humans. Computers control a lot of
critical function; car engines are just one of them.
Jeff

I'd have to see the cost and quality of the A-320 control chips, and
their engineering and programming to buy that comparison.
For all I know the chips controlling the acceleration in drive-by-wire
cars are sourced from the same outfit making chips for Mr Coffee.
--Vic

So? I haven't seen reports of runaway Mr. Coffees. I am sure the chips are
made to high quality standards. The issue really is the programming and
quality assurance (which is testing of how well the programs work,
particularly in unexpected situations). I don't know what Toyota and other
car makers do in that regard.

The advantages of the electronic throttle control are readily apparent in
the 2010 Prius. The gas pedal works differently as you switch between the
Economy, Normal and Power modes. Still, the pedal is mechanically
interfaced to the foot and from what I read the problem lies in the
mechanical interface.

[Mike Hunter]

If you don't know, dr_jeff, what Toyota and other car makers do in that
regard, why are you commenting on something you admit you know nothing
about, again?

Post by Vic Smith

Post by dr_jeff
Tell that to the pilot of the Airbus A-320.
I have to disagree that fly-by-wire is too flaky or that microchips are
too flaky. There are certainly bugs, but those bugs will be worked out.
Computers can react far faster than humans. Computers control a lot of
critical function; car engines are just one of them.
Jeff

I'd have to see the cost and quality of the A-320 control chips, and
their engineering and programming to buy that comparison.
For all I know the chips controlling the acceleration in drive-by-wire
cars are sourced from the same outfit making chips for Mr Coffee.
--Vic

So? I haven't seen reports of runaway Mr. Coffees. I am sure the chips are
made to high quality standards. The issue really is the programming and
quality assurance (which is testing of how well the programs work,
particularly in unexpected situations). I don't know what Toyota and other
car makers do in that regard.

[dr_jeff]

Post by Mike Hunter
If you don't know, dr_jeff, what Toyota and other car makers do in that
regard, why are you commenting on something you admit you know nothing
about, again?

I do know about quality assurance and software engineering, for I have
experience in both.

So, as usual, I am commenting on something I understand.

Jeff

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Vic Smith

Post by dr_jeff
Tell that to the pilot of the Airbus A-320.
I have to disagree that fly-by-wire is too flaky or that microchips are
too flaky. There are certainly bugs, but those bugs will be worked out.
Computers can react far faster than humans. Computers control a lot of
critical function; car engines are just one of them.
Jeff

I'd have to see the cost and quality of the A-320 control chips, and
their engineering and programming to buy that comparison.
For all I know the chips controlling the acceleration in drive-by-wire
cars are sourced from the same outfit making chips for Mr Coffee.
--Vic

So? I haven't seen reports of runaway Mr. Coffees. I am sure the chips are
made to high quality standards. The issue really is the programming and
quality assurance (which is testing of how well the programs work,
particularly in unexpected situations). I don't know what Toyota and other
car makers do in that regard.

[Vic Smith]

Post by dr_jeff
I do know about quality assurance and software engineering, for I have
experience in both.
So, as usual, I am commenting on something I understand.

Nobody understands it until it's resolved.
I'm a retired systems analyst, and I won't speculate too far.
Software bugs can be hidden for years, and until they pop up nobody's
the wiser. The system doesn't even have to very complex if inadequate
testing was done. That's mostly been solved in the business area, but
when Windows goes blue screen anybody can see it's far from a perfect
art or science.
Reason I mentioned chip flakiness is because I've run across it in
building PC's. A high quality mem chip, which passed all the tests I
could give it, failed the test of a Win XP install.
The install would freeze every time loading a DLL. Same DLL every
time. Of course that's what the XP load screen said.
What was really executing and causing the freeze I can't say.
And that raises the issue of diagnostics equipment and the software it
uses. If an electronic bug is uncommon and/or transient, the
diagnostics might not see it.
Anyway, I wasted many hours on it going down false tracks, then I
found an obscure posting on the internet where somebody had a similar
problem and found that changing a mem chip fixed it.
Chip worked fine on a different computer, so it may have been a
combination chip/bus anomaly.
Hachiroku mentioned chip quality, testing and fail-safes done in the
defense industry. I don't think Mr Coffee or Toyota has those
standards. Nor that they need them.
Anyway, this might all be moot, as I'm hearing it's the gas pedal!
Now that is mind-boggling!

--Vic

[Conscience]

Post by Vic Smith

Post by dr_jeff
I do know about quality assurance and software engineering, for I have
experience in both.
So, as usual, I am commenting on something I understand.

Nobody understands it until it's resolved.

"Science must not impose any philosophy any more than the telephone
must tell us what to say." - G. K. Chesterton

[Mike Hunter]

But, but but, dr_jeff you told us you were an MD

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Mike Hunter
If you don't know, dr_jeff, what Toyota and other car makers do in that
regard, why are you commenting on something you admit you know nothing
about, again?

I do know about quality assurance and software engineering, for I have
experience in both.
So, as usual, I am commenting on something I understand.
Jeff

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Vic Smith

Post by dr_jeff
Tell that to the pilot of the Airbus A-320.
I have to disagree that fly-by-wire is too flaky or that microchips
are too flaky. There are certainly bugs, but those bugs will be worked
out. Computers can react far faster than humans. Computers control a
lot of critical function; car engines are just one of them.
Jeff

I'd have to see the cost and quality of the A-320 control chips, and
their engineering and programming to buy that comparison.
For all I know the chips controlling the acceleration in drive-by-wire
cars are sourced from the same outfit making chips for Mr Coffee.
--Vic

So? I haven't seen reports of runaway Mr. Coffees. I am sure the chips
are made to high quality standards. The issue really is the programming
and quality assurance (which is testing of how well the programs work,
particularly in unexpected situations). I don't know what Toyota and
other car makers do in that regard.

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

I think <SLAP!>

I think we're getting tired of your sour-grapes bullshit.

Kiss my ass. Toyota has ONE MAJOR RECALL and you're all over it. How many
has GM had in the past 20 years?

Pound sand.

[Mike Hunter]

In my opinion you are on to something. I believe the answer to Toyotas
problem will be found in the logarithms of the process controller, rather
than a mechanical problem, since it is found on such a diverse number of
dissimilar models built all around the world.

Post by john
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
*********
It will be interesting to see. We have had people post here that the pedals
did not actually stick...if this is the case, the problem (if there really
is one)
has to be the interface or electronic control unit, not any mechanical
device.
Time will tell

[ACAR]

In my opinion you are on to something.   I believe the answer to Toyotas
problem will be found in the logarithms of the process controller, rather
than a mechanical problem, since it is found on such a diverse number of
dissimilar models built all around the world.

It could be that mechanical issues are masking an underlying process
controller problem. I suspect the algorithm is OK as written but
something in the assembly process is putting a very small number of
these controllers off. Could be something as simple as a bent
connector pin.
We'll see what they come up with. Then what they'll do to improve
their QC process.

[AMuzi]

Post by Mike Hunter
In my opinion you are on to something. I believe the answer to Toyotas
problem will be found in the logarithms of the process controller, rather
than a mechanical problem, since it is found on such a diverse number of
dissimilar models built all around the world.

Post by john
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
*********
It will be interesting to see. We have had people post here that the pedals
did not actually stick...if this is the case, the problem (if there really
is one)
has to be the interface or electronic control unit, not any mechanical
device.
Time will tell

Uh, Toyota uses the same logarithms as the rest of the
universe. I believe you meant algorithms, yes?

[dr_jeff]

Post by Mike Hunter
In my opinion you are on to something. I believe the answer to Toyotas
problem will be found in the logarithms of the process controller,

I doubt it. Logarithms are well-know mathematical functions. In fact,
simple calculators and your laptop use logarithms for multiplication.

Post by Mike Hunter
rather
than a mechanical problem, since it is found on such a diverse number of
dissimilar models built all around the world.

Really? In vehicles built in what countries has the problem occurred?

Jeff

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by john
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
*********
It will be interesting to see. We have had people post here that the pedals
did not actually stick...if this is the case, the problem (if there really
is one)
has to be the interface or electronic control unit, not any mechanical
device.
Time will tell

[Mike Hunter]

So far according to published reports, they are built or assembled in the
US, Canada, China and Europe. Do a search, WBMA

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Mike Hunter
In my opinion you are on to something. I believe the answer to Toyotas
problem will be found in the logarithms of the process controller,

I doubt it. Logarithms are well-know mathematical functions. In fact,
simple calculators and your laptop use logarithms for multiplication.

Post by Mike Hunter
rather than a mechanical problem, since it is found on such a diverse
number of dissimilar models built all around the world.

Really? In vehicles built in what countries has the problem occurred?
Jeff

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by john
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
*********
It will be interesting to see. We have had people post here that the pedals
did not actually stick...if this is the case, the problem (if there
really is one)
has to be the interface or electronic control unit, not any mechanical
device.
Time will tell

[dr_jeff]

Post by Mike Hunter
So far according to published reports, they are built or assembled in the
US, Canada, China and Europe. Do a search, WBMA

That's in many places, but not all around the world.

Jeff

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Mike Hunter
In my opinion you are on to something. I believe the answer to Toyotas
problem will be found in the logarithms of the process controller,

I doubt it. Logarithms are well-know mathematical functions. In fact,
simple calculators and your laptop use logarithms for multiplication.

Post by Mike Hunter
rather than a mechanical problem, since it is found on such a diverse
number of dissimilar models built all around the world.

Really? In vehicles built in what countries has the problem occurred?
Jeff

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by john
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
*********
It will be interesting to see. We have had people post here that the pedals
did not actually stick...if this is the case, the problem (if there
really is one)
has to be the interface or electronic control unit, not any mechanical
device.
Time will tell

[Mike Hunter]

What are you smoking? LOL

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Mike Hunter
So far according to published reports, they are built or assembled in the
US, Canada, China and Europe. Do a search, WBMA

That's in many places, but not all around the world.
Jeff

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Mike Hunter
In my opinion you are on to something. I believe the answer to
Toyotas problem will be found in the logarithms of the process
controller,

I doubt it. Logarithms are well-know mathematical functions. In fact,
simple calculators and your laptop use logarithms for multiplication.

Post by Mike Hunter
rather than a mechanical problem, since it is found on such a diverse
number of dissimilar models built all around the world.

Really? In vehicles built in what countries has the problem occurred?
Jeff

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by john
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
*********
It will be interesting to see. We have had people post here that the pedals
did not actually stick...if this is the case, the problem (if there
really is one)
has to be the interface or electronic control unit, not any mechanical
device.
Time will tell

[john]

So is this a case of Toyota design defect?

[Hachiroku ハチロク]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=2010762266

Yeah...we know

[hls]

Post by john
So is this a case of Toyota design defect?

Probably not. There have been relatively few cases of this uncontrollable
acceleration demon.

Had it been a design defect, one would expect the problem to be
widespread. It isnt.

[ACAR]

Post by john
So is this a case of Toyota design defect?

Probably not.   There have been relatively few cases of this uncontrollable
acceleration demon.
Had it been a design defect, one would expect the problem to be
widespread.  It isnt.

I found the following at Automotive News: the pedal issue kinda sounds
like a very infrequent corrosion or wear-related mechanical condition.
The 2009 ES350 crash has been attributed to floor mats. Both these
causes seem pretty easy to detect.

AFAIK, a purely electronic demon, causing loss of throttle control,
has been reported by a very small number of Prius owners. Any other
cars?


"...Mitchell Walorski, head of CTS Corp. investor relations, said the
Elkhart, Ind., supplier is not part of the problem. CTS has “no
knowledge of any accident or injury” stemming from the accelerator
assemblies it supplies Toyota, he said.

Walorski told Automotive News today that CTS engineers are assisting
Toyota, “but this is their recall.” CTS was not consulted about
Toyota's decision to issue the recall or to halt certain vehicles'
sales, he said.

In a separate statement, CTS said the company has been working with
Toyota to develop a new pedal to meet tougher specifications from
Toyota.

“The newly designed pedal is now tested, and parts are beginning to
ship to some Toyota factories,” CTS said.

Toyota described the cause of the recall as “a rare set of conditions
which may cause the accelerator pedal to become harder to depress,
slower to return or, in the worst case, stuck in a partially depressed
position.” Toyota said this condition “is rare and occurs gradually
over a period of time.”

Based on information from Toyota, CTS said, “We are aware of fewer
than a dozen instances where this condition has occurred, and in no
instance did the accelerator actually become stuck in a partially
depressed condition....”

[Not Me]

Post by john
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
"CTS made the pedals at issue. But Khilnani stressed several times to
Wall Street analysts that the pedals CTS made for Toyota were “to
their specifications.” Pedals that CTS makes for other automakers,
including Honda, Nissan, Chrysler and Mitsubishi, he said, are based
on different designs for each automaker. "
http://www.freep.com/article/20100128/BUSINESS01/100128033/1331/

Mullaly indicated the Ford Transit van also uses a Chinese CTS JV
produced pedal of a different design.

[Mike Hunter]

In any event that does not explain why Toyotas with the fly by wire systems
are being recalled as well.


"john" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5c581e0b-de16-4265-950e-***@k18g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.

"CTS made the pedals at issue. But Khilnani stressed several times to
Wall Street analysts that the pedals CTS made for Toyota were “to
their specifications.” Pedals that CTS makes for other automakers,
including Honda, Nissan, Chrysler and Mitsubishi, he said, are based
on different designs for each automaker. "

http://www.freep.com/article/20100128/BUSINESS01/100128033/1331/

[fred]

Post by john
Some kind of specification that is. Let's see if they'll try to blame
it on CTS.
"CTS made the pedals at issue. But Khilnani stressed several times to
Wall Street analysts that the pedals CTS made for Toyota were “to
their specifications.” Pedals that CTS makes for other automakers,
including Honda, Nissan, Chrysler and Mitsubishi, he said, are based
on different designs for each automaker. "
http://www.freep.com/article/20100128/BUSINESS01/100128033/1331/

A cheap Chinese pedal that's also in Pontiac and Ford cars. I said a
while back that it was a bad design. I guess I got this one right.