Toyota Replicated Sudden Acceleration, Forced Owners To Keep Quiet

[john]

Toyota accused of forcing auto owners to keep quiet

New court filings accuse Toyota of secretly repurchasing vehicles
whose owners reported unintended acceleration and forcing owners to
sign confidentiality agreements promising not to discuss their
complaints.

In addition, attorneys representing thousands of Toyota owners charged
that the automaker’s technicians were able to replicate the sudden
acceleration and failed to notify the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration of the problem.

Read more: Toyota accused of forcing auto owners to keep quiet |
freep.com | Detroit Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20101028/BUSINESS01/101028065/1210/Toyota-accused-of-forcing-auto-owners-to-keep-quiet#ixzz13ioXZOoL

[jim beam]

On 10/28/2010 10:15 PM, john wrote:
<snip imbecilic crap>

question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

[edspyhill01]

Post by jim beam
<snip imbecilic crap>
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china?  or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

Amen!

[Brent]

Post by jim beam
<snip imbecilic crap>
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

Because many americans decided that government should have total power
because they wanted free stuff at someone else's expense, decided that
good works could be done through theft at the barrel of a gun,
thought that regulations/laws wouldn't be misuesd, and they wanted to
tell their neighbors how to live.

Politics became a sport that decided who got to steal from who. Theft
became the culture of the country. The morals of people degraded with
the quality and honesty of the money. To expect moral behavior from
thieves is well stupid, but it is what it is now. US jobs don't matter,
they are on top, and screw everyone else. They will get their's while
the getting is good. That's the morality now. From the corporate
executives to the elected office holders to the union leaders.

[mark b]

Post by Brent

Post by jim beam
<snip imbecilic crap>
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china?  or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

Because many americans decided that government should have total power
because they wanted free stuff at someone else's expense, decided that
good works could be done through theft at the barrel of a gun,
thought that regulations/laws wouldn't be misuesd, and they wanted to
tell their neighbors how to live.
Politics became a sport that decided who got to steal from who. Theft
became the culture of the country. The morals of people degraded with
the quality and honesty of the money. To expect moral behavior from
thieves is well stupid, but it is what it is now. US jobs don't matter,
they are on top, and screw everyone else. They will get their's while
the getting is good. That's the morality now. From the corporate
executives to the elected office holders to the union leaders.

This Tea Party drivel is not even worth a response.

[jim beam]

Post by mark b

Post by Brent

Post by jim beam
<snip imbecilic crap>
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? �or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

Because many americans decided that government should have total power
because they wanted free stuff at someone else's expense, decided that
good works could be done through theft at the barrel of a gun,
thought that regulations/laws wouldn't be misuesd, and they wanted to
tell their neighbors how to live.
Politics became a sport that decided who got to steal from who. Theft
became the culture of the country. The morals of people degraded with
the quality and honesty of the money. To expect moral behavior from
thieves is well stupid, but it is what it is now. US jobs don't matter,
they are on top, and screw everyone else. They will get their's while
the getting is good. That's the morality now. From the corporate
executives to the elected office holders to the union leaders.

This Tea Party drivel is not even worth a response.

so why did you respond???

[Brent]

Post by mark b

Post by Brent

Post by jim beam
<snip imbecilic crap>
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china?  or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

Because many americans decided that government should have total power
because they wanted free stuff at someone else's expense, decided that
good works could be done through theft at the barrel of a gun,
thought that regulations/laws wouldn't be misuesd, and they wanted to
tell their neighbors how to live.
Politics became a sport that decided who got to steal from who. Theft
became the culture of the country. The morals of people degraded with
the quality and honesty of the money. To expect moral behavior from
thieves is well stupid, but it is what it is now. US jobs don't matter,
they are on top, and screw everyone else. They will get their's while
the getting is good. That's the morality now. From the corporate
executives to the elected office holders to the union leaders.

This Tea Party drivel is not even worth a response.

Obviously you feel the need to make a statement to ridicule it but you
can't actually formulate a real response. If It is self evidently bad,
you don't need to make that statement. You know I'm correct, but you
just don't want to admit that because then you'd have to consider the
energies you put into the 'sport' of it rooting for your chosen 'team'.

The Tea Party was co-opted long ago and because of that promises us
nothing but the same looting that we've been seeing for decades.

[jim beam]

Post by jim beam
<snip imbecilic crap>
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

here's a little nugget:

“Current Chinese officials have told me that we’re not going to attack
Wall Street, because we basically own it”

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/11/01/101101fa_fact_hersh?currentPage=all

as if we didn't already know that. it's why wall street keeps telling
u.s. c.e.o's to keep shipping jobs to china, regardless of quality or
public disgust issues.

[dr_jeff]

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in
jobs being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the
world. We should be happy that US companies are building factories there
so they can sell cars there.

Jeff

[Jeff Strickland]

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for cars
that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in jobs
being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the world. We
should be happy that US companies are building factories there so they can
sell cars there.
Jeff

China builds cars there and ships them here while we build cars there and
sell them there.

Tell us again why this is a good arrangment ...

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in
jobs being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the
world. We should be happy that US companies are building factories there
so they can sell cars there.

That's not his issue. His issue is that, rather than subcontracting parts
manufacture to American parts manufacturers, GM (and Chrysler and Ford
and Toyota) are subcontracting an increasing amount of parts fabrication
to China. Or they are subcontracting them to folks like Delta who then
sub-subcontract them to Chinese firms.

And I agree that this -is- a bad thing, but I am not sure there is really
much we can do about it other than to wait for the inevitable consequences.
--scott

[jim beam]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in
jobs being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the
world. We should be happy that US companies are building factories there
so they can sell cars there.

That's not his issue. His issue is that, rather than subcontracting parts
manufacture to American parts manufacturers, GM (and Chrysler and Ford
and Toyota) are subcontracting an increasing amount of parts fabrication
to China. Or they are subcontracting them to folks like Delta who then
sub-subcontract them to Chinese firms.
And I agree that this -is- a bad thing, but I am not sure there is really
much we can do about it other than to wait for the inevitable consequences.
--scott

/this/ is why it's happening - because guys like you just roll over and
take it up the ass.

1. write your representatives and make it clear that you want it to stop
- especially when being subsidized by american taxpayers.

2. stop this fatalistic attitude and tell manufacturers you won't buy
chinese-made stuff being sold to you at full domestic manufacturing
prices through deceit and charade. write and/or vote with your wallet.

another thing - labeling laws need to be changed. not only is it
ridiculous that a japanese car company, manufacturing in the u.s. with
american components and american labor is labeled as "import", while a
taxpayer subsidized brand assembled with chinese components is labeled
as "domestic", it's a outright fraud.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by jim beam
/this/ is why it's happening - because guys like you just roll over and
take it up the ass.
1. write your representatives and make it clear that you want it to stop
- especially when being subsidized by american taxpayers.
2. stop this fatalistic attitude and tell manufacturers you won't buy
chinese-made stuff being sold to you at full domestic manufacturing
prices through deceit and charade. write and/or vote with your wallet.

People want the cheapest possible products. An offshore outfit that
can make the cheapest possible products is going to have a market.

In the 19th century that benefitted America when we were undercutting
the British and textile mills employing pretty close to slave labour
were opening up all over New England. But America grew up, and wages
improved.

Right now it's China. After a while, the Chinese will start demanding
proper wages, the cost of manufacturing in China will go up, and next
thing you know Nigeria or Haiti will be the next place everyone contracts
out to for cheap work.

The only way to stop this is for the end customer to demand good quality
products made under good conditions. And 200 years of experience has
shown us that they won't. That's why Wal-Mart exists.

Post by jim beam
Another thing - labeling laws need to be changed. not only is it
ridiculous that a japanese car company, manufacturing in the u.s. with
american components and american labor is labeled as "import", while a
taxpayer subsidized brand assembled with chinese components is labeled
as "domestic", it's a outright fraud.

That _is_ true.
--scott

[jim beam]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
/this/ is why it's happening - because guys like you just roll over and
take it up the ass.
1. write your representatives and make it clear that you want it to stop
- especially when being subsidized by american taxpayers.
2. stop this fatalistic attitude and tell manufacturers you won't buy
chinese-made stuff being sold to you at full domestic manufacturing
prices through deceit and charade. write and/or vote with your wallet.

People want the cheapest possible products. An offshore outfit that
can make the cheapest possible products is going to have a market.
In the 19th century that benefitted America when we were undercutting
the British and textile mills employing pretty close to slave labour
were opening up all over New England. But America grew up, and wages
improved.
Right now it's China. After a while, the Chinese will start demanding
proper wages, the cost of manufacturing in China will go up, and next
thing you know Nigeria or Haiti will be the next place everyone contracts
out to for cheap work.
The only way to stop this is for the end customer to demand good quality
products made under good conditions. And 200 years of experience has
shown us that they won't. That's why Wal-Mart exists.

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.

demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
Another thing - labeling laws need to be changed. not only is it
ridiculous that a japanese car company, manufacturing in the u.s. with
american components and american labor is labeled as "import", while a
taxpayer subsidized brand assembled with chinese components is labeled
as "domestic", it's a outright fraud.

That _is_ true.
--scott

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by jim beam
so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap. If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

If you want to impose market controls and freeze crappy products out,
then you don't believe in free markets any more. I think market controls
are futile but they don't really do any harm because they never work.

The market is a powerful thing. And the market wants cheap junk.
--scott

[Brent]

Post by Scott Dorsey
I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap. If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

Yes there is a demand for cheap stuff. It has its place. But the real
problem is the inflation (increasing the money supply) created by the
central bank to benefit the bankers and government.

Naturally products become less expensive over time as people get more
productive due to advancements in making them. Through inflation the
banksters and the government rake that off for themselves. But even that
is not enough for them so they cause more inflation and speculative
bubbles from cheap money loaned to speculators. This makes things more
expensive even though productivity is increasing and thus drives
manufacturing to lower wage locations.

If it wasn't for the central bank and fiat money US made products would
continually cost less until some bottom was reached. There would be no
reason to close and relocate mature factories with established capital
equipment to make the widgets here in the US. The savings would be too
minimal and the payback too long. We can see this in very old product
types like incandescent light bulbs. Very cheap, made in the USA. Which
IMO is the real reason they are being banned, to crush those sectors of
american manufacturing that could beat China even with the lopsided
conditions.

We also still see this in products that develop faster than the
governments around the world can inflate, like computers.

In the period before the federal reserve the buying power of savings
increased instead of decreased for the very fact that stuff took less
labor make over time.

[jim beam]

Post by Brent

Post by Scott Dorsey
I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap. If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

Yes there is a demand for cheap stuff. It has its place. But the real
problem is the inflation (increasing the money supply) created by the
central bank to benefit the bankers and government.
Naturally products become less expensive over time as people get more
productive due to advancements in making them. Through inflation the
banksters and the government rake that off for themselves. But even that
is not enough for them so they cause more inflation and speculative
bubbles from cheap money loaned to speculators. This makes things more
expensive even though productivity is increasing and thus drives
manufacturing to lower wage locations.
If it wasn't for the central bank and fiat money US made products would
continually cost less until some bottom was reached. There would be no
reason to close and relocate mature factories with established capital
equipment to make the widgets here in the US. The savings would be too
minimal and the payback too long. We can see this in very old product
types like incandescent light bulbs. Very cheap, made in the USA. Which
IMO is the real reason they are being banned, to crush those sectors of
american manufacturing that could beat China even with the lopsided
conditions.

well said.

Post by Brent
We also still see this in products that develop faster than the
governments around the world can inflate, like computers.
In the period before the federal reserve the buying power of savings
increased instead of decreased for the very fact that stuff took less
labor make over time.

[jim beam]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Post by Scott Dorsey
If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

Post by Scott Dorsey
If you want to impose market controls and freeze crappy products out,
then you don't believe in free markets any more.

don't put words in my mouth. i want stuff to be labeled so people can
make informed choices. i want our politicians to be mindful of the
consequences of their actions. and i want people like you to read the
financial press so you actually understand what you're talking about
when you say "free markets".

Post by Scott Dorsey
I think market controls
are futile but they don't really do any harm because they never work.
The market is a powerful thing. And the market wants cheap junk.

says the guy that doesn't understand what he's talking about and
condones political rort.

Post by Scott Dorsey
--scott

[dr_jeff]

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

If you want to impose market controls and freeze crappy products out,
then you don't believe in free markets any more.

don't put words in my mouth. i want stuff to be labeled so people can
make informed choices. i want our politicians to be mindful of the
consequences of their actions. and i want people like you to read the
financial press so you actually understand what you're talking about
when you say "free markets".

I think market controls
are futile but they don't really do any harm because they never work.
The market is a powerful thing. And the market wants cheap junk.

says the guy that doesn't understand what he's talking about and
condones political rort.

--scott

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

Post by dr_jeff

If you want to impose market controls and freeze crappy products out,
then you don't believe in free markets any more.

don't put words in my mouth. i want stuff to be labeled so people can
make informed choices. i want our politicians to be mindful of the
consequences of their actions. and i want people like you to read the
financial press so you actually understand what you're talking about
when you say "free markets".

I think market controls
are futile but they don't really do any harm because they never work.
The market is a powerful thing. And the market wants cheap junk.

says the guy that doesn't understand what he's talking about and
condones political rort.

--scott

[dr_jeff]

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

No, I am not.

A regulated market is best, not completely free, but costs are properly
accounted for and stupid stuff like the mortgage fiasco is less likely
to happen.

Jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

If you want to impose market controls and freeze crappy products out,
then you don't believe in free markets any more.

don't put words in my mouth. i want stuff to be labeled so people can
make informed choices. i want our politicians to be mindful of the
consequences of their actions. and i want people like you to read the
financial press so you actually understand what you're talking about
when you say "free markets".

I think market controls
are futile but they don't really do any harm because they never work.
The market is a powerful thing. And the market wants cheap junk.

says the guy that doesn't understand what he's talking about and
condones political rort.

--scott

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

No, I am not.
A regulated market is best, not completely free, but costs are properly
accounted for and stupid stuff like the mortgage fiasco is less likely
to happen.

so you want to "regulate" against the chinese dumping sub-standard crap
at below cost, and "regulate" against american corporations moving their
production to china so it can be ripped off and their intellectual
property stolen? because some politician helps wall st put margins
pressure on a company to save 3¢ on a $17 item? just so they de-unionize?

Post by dr_jeff
Jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

If you want to impose market controls and freeze crappy products out,
then you don't believe in free markets any more.

don't put words in my mouth. i want stuff to be labeled so people can
make informed choices. i want our politicians to be mindful of the
consequences of their actions. and i want people like you to read the
financial press so you actually understand what you're talking about
when you say "free markets".

I think market controls
are futile but they don't really do any harm because they never work.
The market is a powerful thing. And the market wants cheap junk.

says the guy that doesn't understand what he's talking about and
condones political rort.

--scott

[dr_jeff]

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

No, I am not.
A regulated market is best, not completely free, but costs are properly
accounted for and stupid stuff like the mortgage fiasco is less likely
to happen.

so you want to "regulate" against the chinese dumping sub-standard crap
at below cost, and "regulate" against american corporations moving their
production to china so it can be ripped off and their intellectual
property stolen? because some politician helps wall st put margins
pressure on a company to save 3¢ on a $17 item? just so they de-unionize?

No, I want to regulate the market so that the costs associated with
making the products are including the price of the products, like the
environmental costs. In addition, the markets should be regulated so
that the value of the currencies are fairly valued. In addition, the
copyright and other intellectual property laws should be properly enforced.

If politicians are putting pressure on Wall St., it is the fault of the
people who hired (elected) them.

Most manufacturing plants are not unionized in the US.

Jefff

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

No, I am not.
A regulated market is best, not completely free, but costs are properly
accounted for and stupid stuff like the mortgage fiasco is less likely
to happen.

so you want to "regulate" against the chinese dumping sub-standard crap
at below cost, and "regulate" against american corporations moving their
production to china so it can be ripped off and their intellectual
property stolen? because some politician helps wall st put margins
pressure on a company to save 3¢ on a $17 item? just so they de-unionize?

No, I want to regulate the market so that the costs associated with
making the products are including the price of the products, like the
environmental costs. In addition, the markets should be regulated so
that the value of the currencies are fairly valued. In addition, the
copyright and other intellectual property laws should be properly enforced.
If politicians are putting pressure on Wall St., it is the fault of the
people who hired (elected) them.
Most manufacturing plants are not unionized in the US.

"the ones that are left" you mean. the ones that /were/ unionized have
been pretty much annihilated.

Post by dr_jeff
Jefff

time to figure out the "sig" function in your newsreader,
jefffffffffffffffy???

[dr_jeff]

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

No, I am not.
A regulated market is best, not completely free, but costs are properly
accounted for and stupid stuff like the mortgage fiasco is less likely
to happen.

so you want to "regulate" against the chinese dumping sub-standard crap
at below cost, and "regulate" against american corporations moving their
production to china so it can be ripped off and their intellectual
property stolen? because some politician helps wall st put margins
pressure on a company to save 3¢ on a $17 item? just so they de-unionize?

No, I want to regulate the market so that the costs associated with
making the products are including the price of the products, like the
environmental costs. In addition, the markets should be regulated so
that the value of the currencies are fairly valued. In addition, the
copyright and other intellectual property laws should be properly enforced.
If politicians are putting pressure on Wall St., it is the fault of the
people who hired (elected) them.
Most manufacturing plants are not unionized in the US.

"the ones that are left" you mean.

Please don't tell me what I mean.

Post by jim beam
the ones that /were/ unionized have
been pretty much annihilated.

Post by dr_jeff
Jefff

time to figure out the "sig" function in your newsreader,
jefffffffffffffffy???

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

No, I am not.
A regulated market is best, not completely free, but costs are properly
accounted for and stupid stuff like the mortgage fiasco is less likely
to happen.

so you want to "regulate" against the chinese dumping sub-standard crap
at below cost, and "regulate" against american corporations moving their
production to china so it can be ripped off and their intellectual
property stolen? because some politician helps wall st put margins
pressure on a company to save 3¢ on a $17 item? just so they de-unionize?

No, I want to regulate the market so that the costs associated with
making the products are including the price of the products, like the
environmental costs. In addition, the markets should be regulated so
that the value of the currencies are fairly valued. In addition, the
copyright and other intellectual property laws should be properly enforced.
If politicians are putting pressure on Wall St., it is the fault of the
people who hired (elected) them.
Most manufacturing plants are not unionized in the US.

"the ones that are left" you mean.

Please don't tell me what I mean.

well if that's /not/ what you mean, go back to the part where i point
out that you don't know what you're talking about. jefffy.

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam
the ones that /were/ unionized have
been pretty much annihilated.

Post by dr_jeff
Jefff

time to figure out the "sig" function in your newsreader,
jefffffffffffffffy???

[dr_jeff]

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is,
the
market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

No, I am not.
A regulated market is best, not completely free, but costs are properly
accounted for and stupid stuff like the mortgage fiasco is less likely
to happen.

so you want to "regulate" against the chinese dumping sub-standard crap
at below cost, and "regulate" against american corporations moving their
production to china so it can be ripped off and their intellectual
property stolen? because some politician helps wall st put margins
pressure on a company to save 3¢ on a $17 item? just so they de-unionize?

No, I want to regulate the market so that the costs associated with
making the products are including the price of the products, like the
environmental costs. In addition, the markets should be regulated so
that the value of the currencies are fairly valued. In addition, the
copyright and other intellectual property laws should be properly enforced.
If politicians are putting pressure on Wall St., it is the fault of the
people who hired (elected) them.
Most manufacturing plants are not unionized in the US.

"the ones that are left" you mean.

Please don't tell me what I mean.

well if that's /not/ what you mean, go back to the part where i point
out that you don't know what you're talking about. jefffy.

I won't say what I am thinking, because I don't use that kind of
language. Please don't tell me what I mean. And please don't be rude and
condescending by calling me "jefffy."

Have a great day.

Jeff

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam

Post by dr_jeff

so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as
easy as
you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO
SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is,
the
market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of
business.

Wrong. If K-mart didn't sell good quality, they'd be out of business.
(K-mart owns Sears). They don't sell great quality, but the quality is
pretty good.

[WHOOSH]

Post by dr_jeff

If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the
case
for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the
country".

We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

er, so what do you want dude? "free and unregulated", or "free and
unregulated, but not free and not unregulated"??? you sound terribly
confused.

No, I am not.
A regulated market is best, not completely free, but costs are properly
accounted for and stupid stuff like the mortgage fiasco is less likely
to happen.

so you want to "regulate" against the chinese dumping sub-standard crap
at below cost, and "regulate" against american corporations moving their
production to china so it can be ripped off and their intellectual
property stolen? because some politician helps wall st put margins
pressure on a company to save 3¢ on a $17 item? just so they de-unionize?

No, I want to regulate the market so that the costs associated with
making the products are including the price of the products, like the
environmental costs. In addition, the markets should be regulated so
that the value of the currencies are fairly valued. In addition, the
copyright and other intellectual property laws should be properly enforced.
If politicians are putting pressure on Wall St., it is the fault of the
people who hired (elected) them.
Most manufacturing plants are not unionized in the US.

"the ones that are left" you mean.

Please don't tell me what I mean.

well if that's /not/ what you mean, go back to the part where i point
out that you don't know what you're talking about. jefffy.

I won't say what I am thinking, because I don't use that kind of
language.

i didn't say you were /thinking/ jefffy - that you're not is all too
apparent.

Post by dr_jeff
Please don't tell me what I mean.

you don't like me helping??? [that's a rhetorical question btw]

Post by dr_jeff
And please don't be rude and
condescending by calling me "jefffy."

i'm not being rude or condescending, i'm being demeaning. but i'm like
that with anyone chopless who gives themselves honorifics on usenet.

Post by dr_jeff
Have a great day.
Jeff

configured your newsreader to add sigs yet jefffy?

[Brent]

Post by dr_jeff
We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

There wasn't anything poorly regulated about them from the POV of those
doing the regulating. They were regulated just as a political system
will regulate, for the benefit of those with an inside political track
and influence.

The problem is that people equate no regulation with a system that
wasn't really that much different than today's. Those with an inside
political track used their influence to manipulate and steal. The 'hands
off' era was very much 'hands on'. It's the same thing done today but
the regulation is used as weapon against outsiders as well as a tool to
enrich themselves.

There is no such thing as "Properly regulated" because no small group
can possibly know all the data required to do it and those people doing
the regulating have self interest. You would essentially need god like
beings with perfect morals and the ability to see and know all to pull
that off.

[dr_jeff]

Post by Brent

Post by dr_jeff
We had poorly regulated financial markets. No one understood the
transactions going on. And we had financial disaster. Free is good.
Unregulated isn't. Properly regulated is good.

There wasn't anything poorly regulated about them from the POV of those
doing the regulating. They were regulated just as a political system
will regulate, for the benefit of those with an inside political track
and influence.

Well, then the American people need to take back their power at the polls.

Post by Brent
The problem is that people equate no regulation with a system that
wasn't really that much different than today's. Those with an inside
political track used their influence to manipulate and steal. The 'hands
off' era was very much 'hands on'. It's the same thing done today but
the regulation is used as weapon against outsiders as well as a tool to
enrich themselves.
There is no such thing as "Properly regulated" because no small group
can possibly know all the data required to do it and those people doing
the regulating have self interest. You would essentially need god like
beings with perfect morals and the ability to see and know all to pull
that off.

However, the system in place today can be improved. Nothing is perfect.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Sears is a great example. Compare the stuff Sears sold thirty years ago
to the stuff Sears is selling today and for the most part the American stuff
they are selling today is much poorer quality than the American stuff they
used to sell. If you damage an old tool, they'll replace it for free but
the replacement isn't anywhere near as good as the original.

There are a few exceptions, like some of the relabelled Wiha jeweler's
screwdrivers, but for the most part the quality of the Sears tools has dropped
substantially as they have tried to reach a wider market.

Just because it's made in the USA doesn't mean it's any good. Americans can
make cheap crap too, just not quite as cheaply as the Chinese.

When you attempt to sell to the mass market, you _have_ to sell crap because
that's what the mass market wants and always has.

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey
If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

I don't think there is any particular political agenda going on here, I
think it's basically a result of market demands. I think in the short
term it does undermine the country's economic and military stability, but
in the long term it won't make much difference overall.

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey
If you want to impose market controls and freeze crappy products out,
then you don't believe in free markets any more.

don't put words in my mouth. i want stuff to be labeled so people can
make informed choices. i want our politicians to be mindful of the
consequences of their actions. and i want people like you to read the
financial press so you actually understand what you're talking about
when you say "free markets".

I would support all of these things too. But the thing is, people who
sell products don't _want_ customers to make informed choices. Informed
customers aren't as profitable. People who sell products to the mass market
want to go as far as possible to keep customers from being informed.

Don't blame that on the government, though I think it's a crime that the FTC
permits companies to get away with some of the stuff they do (just check
the labelling on Castrol Syntec some time... and compare the different
certifications on the different viscosities... they are all totally different
formulations).

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey
I think market controls
are futile but they don't really do any harm because they never work.
The market is a powerful thing. And the market wants cheap junk.

says the guy that doesn't understand what he's talking about and
condones political rort.

No, I just think that fighting the market is futile. I mean, do if if you
want, but it'll just make you more frustrated and more angry.
--scott

[Brent]

Post by Scott Dorsey
Sears is a great example. Compare the stuff Sears sold thirty years ago
to the stuff Sears is selling today and for the most part the American stuff
they are selling today is much poorer quality than the American stuff they
used to sell. If you damage an old tool, they'll replace it for free but
the replacement isn't anywhere near as good as the original.

This is inflation at work. They want to maintain a dollar price but
because the federal reserve keeps creating more dollars to fund
government debt and bankster profits the product must be less expensive
to make in constant dollars. When inflation exceeds the rate of
productivity increase the quality of the product must go down.

Post by Scott Dorsey
When you attempt to sell to the mass market, you _have_ to sell crap because
that's what the mass market wants and always has.

True. The moron majority will not know the difference. But that is due
to education. The basic economics education of being able to compare
products and knowing that for how much you use a given item if there is
a payback for buying the higher quality one or not.

Post by Scott Dorsey
I don't think there is any particular political agenda going on here, I
think it's basically a result of market demands.

There is an agenda (self serving) from various individuals and groups
that influence regulation, education, law, foreign policy, trade policy,
and monetary policy. It is easier to achieve wealth through the
political process than it is through the process of competition on the
market. The political system can be used to shape the market and harm
competition.

[jim beam]

On 11/01/2010 08:38 AM, Brent wrote:
<snip for clarity>

Post by Brent
There is an agenda (self serving) from various individuals and groups
that influence regulation, education, law, foreign policy, trade policy,
and monetary policy. It is easier to achieve wealth through the
political process than it is through the process of competition on the
market. The political system can be used to shape the market and harm
competition.

yes indeed.

[jim beam]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
so, you're just going to sit there and resign yourself. that dude, is
pathetic. especially so when expressing an opinion is as easy as you
having sat there and wasted electrons with your post.
demand labeling changes! don't buy chinese crap! DO SOMETHING!!!

I don't buy Chinese crap when I can help it. But the thing is, the market
demands crap.

no it doesn't. sears prove that everyday when they sell AMERICAN tools
at more than TWICE the price of cheap chinese crap. because sears
figured out that if they /didn't/ sell american, they'd be out of business.

Sears is a great example. Compare the stuff Sears sold thirty years ago
to the stuff Sears is selling today and for the most part the American stuff
they are selling today is much poorer quality than the American stuff they
used to sell. If you damage an old tool, they'll replace it for free but
the replacement isn't anywhere near as good as the original.

not true dude. i've seen many vintage sears tools at swap meets, and a
lot of that old stuff is carp.

Post by Scott Dorsey
There are a few exceptions, like some of the relabelled Wiha jeweler's
screwdrivers, but for the most part the quality of the Sears tools has dropped
substantially as they have tried to reach a wider market.
Just because it's made in the USA doesn't mean it's any good. Americans can
make cheap crap too, just not quite as cheaply as the Chinese.

they can, but things like sears sockets and ratchets are not it. in
fact, you have to spend a /lot/ of money to get anything better.

ordinary wrenches, well, sears aren't that great in terms of finish, but
they won't fracture or bend under load like cheap chinese carp will.

Post by Scott Dorsey
When you attempt to sell to the mass market, you _have_ to sell crap because
that's what the mass market wants and always has.

sears sell cheap chinese carp, but not with "mase in usa" stamped on it.
you look at irwin vice-grip brand pliers. they do everything to
disguise the fact that they're now made in china. "original and best"
my ass.

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey
If you believe in free and unregulated markets, it's a
thing you have to live with. It's nothing new, it's been the case for
centuries.

"free and unregulated" doesn't mean "getting sold out by a political
agenda that undermines the military and economic security of the country".

I don't think there is any particular political agenda going on here, I
think it's basically a result of market demands. I think in the short
term it does undermine the country's economic and military stability, but
in the long term it won't make much difference overall.

year, long term, we'll all be speaking chinese - and learning from
chinese history books how the chinese discovered america and that
they're simply "returning"!

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey
If you want to impose market controls and freeze crappy products out,
then you don't believe in free markets any more.

don't put words in my mouth. i want stuff to be labeled so people can
make informed choices. i want our politicians to be mindful of the
consequences of their actions. and i want people like you to read the
financial press so you actually understand what you're talking about
when you say "free markets".

I would support all of these things too. But the thing is, people who
sell products don't _want_ customers to make informed choices.

some don't. rubber-maid/irwin for example. but domestic manufacturers
do because they know it helps sales. that gets messed up when companies
like rubber-maid/irwin lobby for obfuscation of labeling laws to allow
them to masquerade as domestic so they can charge domestic prices for
cheap chinese crap.

Post by Scott Dorsey
Informed
customers aren't as profitable. People who sell products to the mass market
want to go as far as possible to keep customers from being informed.

see above. as long as domestics don't rip people off, their customers
are happy to pay a premium.

Post by Scott Dorsey
Don't blame that on the government, though I think it's a crime that the FTC
permits companies to get away with some of the stuff they do (just check
the labelling on Castrol Syntec some time... and compare the different
certifications on the different viscosities... they are all totally different
formulations).

eh? that para makes no sense.

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey
I think market controls
are futile but they don't really do any harm because they never work.
The market is a powerful thing. And the market wants cheap junk.

says the guy that doesn't understand what he's talking about and
condones political rort.

No, I just think that fighting the market is futile. I mean, do if if you
want, but it'll just make you more frustrated and more angry.
--scott

it's not a question of "fighting the market". it's a question of not
selling out, getting your priorities straight, and ensuring we have an
economic and military future.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey
Don't blame that on the government, though I think it's a crime that the FTC
permits companies to get away with some of the stuff they do (just check
the labelling on Castrol Syntec some time... and compare the different
certifications on the different viscosities... they are all totally different
formulations).

eh? that para makes no sense.

Castrol Syntec 5W-40. It meets the BMW and Mercedes specs. It can be sold
in Europe as a synthetic.

Syntec 10W-30, though, is a totally different oil and made from a petroleum
base oil and cannot be sold in Europe as a synthetic even though Castrol sells
it as such in the US.

The 0W-30 is even more dramatically different and chemically unrelated.

This information is hidden on the datasheet... but if you did not check them
you would think that the oils all are related somehow since they have the same
name...
--scott

[jim beam]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam

Post by Scott Dorsey
Don't blame that on the government, though I think it's a crime that the FTC
permits companies to get away with some of the stuff they do (just check
the labelling on Castrol Syntec some time... and compare the different
certifications on the different viscosities... they are all totally different
formulations).

eh? that para makes no sense.

Castrol Syntec 5W-40. It meets the BMW and Mercedes specs. It can be sold
in Europe as a synthetic.
Syntec 10W-30, though, is a totally different oil and made from a petroleum
base oil and cannot be sold in Europe as a synthetic even though Castrol sells
it as such in the US.
The 0W-30 is even more dramatically different and chemically unrelated.
This information is hidden on the datasheet... but if you did not check them
you would think that the oils all are related somehow since they have the same
name...
--scott

fair enough. but you can't really blame castrol if there's no labeling
laws requiring them to state what "synthetic" is supposed to mean.

tangential to that, have you noticed how all brake fluid is now
"synthetic"? same formulation as it ever was, just labeled different.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by jim beam
fair enough. but you can't really blame castrol if there's no labeling
laws requiring them to state what "synthetic" is supposed to mean.

THAT is why aggressive regulation is important.

Post by jim beam
tangential to that, have you noticed how all brake fluid is now
"synthetic"? same formulation as it ever was, just labeled different.

Yes, that's very silly.
--scott

[hls]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
tangential to that, have you noticed how all brake fluid is now
"synthetic"? same formulation as it ever was, just labeled different.

Yes, that's very silly.
--scott

Most brake fluid has been synthetic for as long as I can remember. Really
synthetic.

The most used are the glycol ethers. Some small amount of silicone fluids
are
used, but those are also truly synthetic. There are also mineral oil brake
fluids,
and those are naturally occuring in nature but highly refined.

[jim beam]

Post by hls

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
tangential to that, have you noticed how all brake fluid is now
"synthetic"? same formulation as it ever was, just labeled different.

Yes, that's very silly.
--scott

Most brake fluid has been synthetic for as long as I can remember.
Really synthetic.

that's the point - they /always/ have been. it's only lately that
they've been labeled as such - because "synthetic" is a meaningless
buzz-word used by the guys in the marketing department.

Post by hls
The most used are the glycol ethers. Some small amount of silicone
fluids are
used, but those are also truly synthetic. There are also mineral oil
brake fluids,
and those are naturally occuring in nature but highly refined.

[Brent]

Post by jim beam
that's the point - they /always/ have been. it's only lately that
they've been labeled as such - because "synthetic" is a meaningless
buzz-word used by the guys in the marketing department.

They needed something to get the average person to buy DOT4 (besides the
owner's manual on some cars) :)

[jim beam]

Post by Brent

Post by jim beam
that's the point - they /always/ have been. it's only lately that
they've been labeled as such - because "synthetic" is a meaningless
buzz-word used by the guys in the marketing department.

They needed something to get the average person to buy DOT4 (besides the
owner's manual on some cars) :)

not a differentiator - dot3 is still labeled "synthetic".

[Brent]

Post by Scott Dorsey
People want the cheapest possible products. An offshore outfit that
can make the cheapest possible products is going to have a market.

China isn't as cheap as it first appears. First manufacturing wise it
requires a lot of baby sitting, travel, scrapped parts, etc and so
forth. Next are larger economic issues such as China's currency being
pegged to the dollar and the China's government purchase of US federal
government debt. If either of these stopped much of the illusion of
China being inexpensive would vanish. I say illusion because it is
subsidized with destroying the value of savings of everyday americans
and chinese. Lastly is the environmental issue. Being a communist
country people can't do anything to stop factories from spewing toxins
like people do in the USA. There is a cost to that as well. The shipping
costs (money and time) are also part of the equation that can be
overlooked.

Even without considering all of that the savings over a complex and
expensive product is minimal per unit. It is a lot over the production
run but the cost savings is minimal per unit.

[jim beam]

Post by Brent

Post by Scott Dorsey
People want the cheapest possible products. An offshore outfit that
can make the cheapest possible products is going to have a market.

China isn't as cheap as it first appears. First manufacturing wise it
requires a lot of baby sitting, travel, scrapped parts, etc and so
forth. Next are larger economic issues such as China's currency being
pegged to the dollar and the China's government purchase of US federal
government debt. If either of these stopped much of the illusion of
China being inexpensive would vanish. I say illusion because it is
subsidized with destroying the value of savings of everyday americans
and chinese. Lastly is the environmental issue. Being a communist
country people can't do anything to stop factories from spewing toxins
like people do in the USA. There is a cost to that as well. The shipping
costs (money and time) are also part of the equation that can be
overlooked.
Even without considering all of that the savings over a complex and
expensive product is minimal per unit. It is a lot over the production
run but the cost savings is minimal per unit.

a buddy of mine works for a certain large electronics manufacturing
contractor, and he says they've been bringing a lot of stuff back here
or even to germany. imagine that, germany, a country with massive labor
costs, unions up the wazoo, massive energy and facilities costs, etc.,
being chosen because overall, it's cheaper than china. why? because,
exactly as you say, a lot of the savings are illusory. and reject rates
in some industries can cost you your reputation, and thus any future
business.

again, the business case for manufacturing in china is weak. [the human
rights case of course just doesn't factor in at all. and the military
costs??? well, that's a whole different story.] if it wasn't for the
fact that china owns wall st and attempts to own our politicians, and
that the pussies just roll over and take it, they'd be out of luck.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by jim beam
a buddy of mine works for a certain large electronics manufacturing
contractor, and he says they've been bringing a lot of stuff back here
or even to germany. imagine that, germany, a country with massive labor
costs, unions up the wazoo, massive energy and facilities costs, etc.,
being chosen because overall, it's cheaper than china. why? because,
exactly as you say, a lot of the savings are illusory. and reject rates
in some industries can cost you your reputation, and thus any future
business.

In the electronics world, the Chinese do some things really well, and
some things really poorly. And the concept of quality control at every
point in the manufacturing chain seems to escape them.

They're good at doing pick and place assembly if you can keep them from
making unauthorized parts substitutions (and you can if you are doing
enough volume and don't mind rejecting a few lots). They are really
good at PC board fab work for standard FR4 boards. Machining, forget it.
Case assembly? No. Transformers? Utter disaster.

The key to getting the most from offshore fab work is to break it up
into pieces... do what you can in-house, ship what you can't do to
somebody that can do it well.

Post by jim beam
again, the business case for manufacturing in china is weak. [the human
rights case of course just doesn't factor in at all. and the military
costs??? well, that's a whole different story.] if it wasn't for the
fact that china owns wall st and attempts to own our politicians, and
that the pussies just roll over and take it, they'd be out of luck.

China's manufacturing infrastructure is very much like that of the
US in 1810 or so. Lots of low wage manual jobs open. Lots of assembly
work. Not too many skilled engineers, but smart people from the production
line trying to work their way up. No intellectual property control.
Everybody trying to steal designs from everyone else. Lots of fake
products for sale. Lots of customers who don't know the difference.
--scott

[jim beam]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
a buddy of mine works for a certain large electronics manufacturing
contractor, and he says they've been bringing a lot of stuff back here
or even to germany. imagine that, germany, a country with massive labor
costs, unions up the wazoo, massive energy and facilities costs, etc.,
being chosen because overall, it's cheaper than china. why? because,
exactly as you say, a lot of the savings are illusory. and reject rates
in some industries can cost you your reputation, and thus any future
business.

In the electronics world, the Chinese do some things really well, and
some things really poorly. And the concept of quality control at every
point in the manufacturing chain seems to escape them.
They're good at doing pick and place assembly if you can keep them from
making unauthorized parts substitutions (and you can if you are doing
enough volume and don't mind rejecting a few lots). They are really
good at PC board fab work for standard FR4 boards.

yeah, using american machines and american software that do it for
them!!! why the f@#k would anyone send that machine from here to there?
is their electricity cheaper?

Post by Scott Dorsey
Machining, forget it.
Case assembly? No. Transformers? Utter disaster.
The key to getting the most from offshore fab work is to break it up
into pieces... do what you can in-house, ship what you can't do to
somebody that can do it well.

Post by jim beam
again, the business case for manufacturing in china is weak. [the human
rights case of course just doesn't factor in at all. and the military
costs??? well, that's a whole different story.] if it wasn't for the
fact that china owns wall st and attempts to own our politicians, and
that the pussies just roll over and take it, they'd be out of luck.

China's manufacturing infrastructure is very much like that of the
US in 1810 or so. Lots of low wage manual jobs open. Lots of assembly
work. Not too many skilled engineers, but smart people from the production
line trying to work their way up. No intellectual property control.
Everybody trying to steal designs from everyone else. Lots of fake
products for sale. Lots of customers who don't know the difference.
--scott

so we should just buy it, despite the fact that they're a military
competitor, they've been given an opportunity to undermine our economy,
and american companies are allowed to mis-label what they sell us at
full american prices. got it.

[Brent]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
a buddy of mine works for a certain large electronics manufacturing
contractor, and he says they've been bringing a lot of stuff back here
or even to germany. imagine that, germany, a country with massive labor
costs, unions up the wazoo, massive energy and facilities costs, etc.,
being chosen because overall, it's cheaper than china. why? because,
exactly as you say, a lot of the savings are illusory. and reject rates
in some industries can cost you your reputation, and thus any future
business.

In Germany nearly everything gets automated, in China often only what
can't be done by hand is automated. That's why it can be cheaper or the
same in Germany.

Post by Scott Dorsey
In the electronics world, the Chinese do some things really well, and
some things really poorly. And the concept of quality control at every
point in the manufacturing chain seems to escape them.

That's one place the baby sitting comes in, but there is still scrap.

Post by Scott Dorsey
They're good at doing pick and place assembly if you can keep them from
making unauthorized parts substitutions (and you can if you are doing
enough volume and don't mind rejecting a few lots).

Pick and place assembly is entirely automated. Someone writes the
program and that is that. The program can be written in another country,
tested on an identical machine and then transfered to a factory in
china. Put the reels in the right places, run the program, set the
reflow ovens correctly and that's that.

[jim beam]

Post by Brent

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by jim beam
a buddy of mine works for a certain large electronics manufacturing
contractor, and he says they've been bringing a lot of stuff back here
or even to germany. imagine that, germany, a country with massive labor
costs, unions up the wazoo, massive energy and facilities costs, etc.,
being chosen because overall, it's cheaper than china. why? because,
exactly as you say, a lot of the savings are illusory. and reject rates
in some industries can cost you your reputation, and thus any future
business.

In Germany nearly everything gets automated,

which is /precisely/ what we should do here!!!!!!!! we keep it on
shore, we don't compromise our military or economic security, and we can
undercut the germans because we have lower overheads!

Post by Brent
in China often only what
can't be done by hand is automated. That's why it can be cheaper or the
same in Germany.

Post by Scott Dorsey
In the electronics world, the Chinese do some things really well, and
some things really poorly. And the concept of quality control at every
point in the manufacturing chain seems to escape them.

That's one place the baby sitting comes in, but there is still scrap.

Post by Scott Dorsey
They're good at doing pick and place assembly if you can keep them from
making unauthorized parts substitutions (and you can if you are doing
enough volume and don't mind rejecting a few lots).

Pick and place assembly is entirely automated. Someone writes the
program and that is that. The program can be written in another country,
tested on an identical machine and then transfered to a factory in
china. Put the reels in the right places, run the program, set the
reflow ovens correctly and that's that.

[jim beam]

Post by jim beam

Post by Brent

People want the cheapest possible products. An offshore outfit that
can make the cheapest possible products is going to have a market.

China isn't as cheap as it first appears. First manufacturing wise it
requires a lot of baby sitting, travel, scrapped parts, etc and so
forth. Next are larger economic issues such as China's currency being
pegged to the dollar and the China's government purchase of US federal
government debt. If either of these stopped much of the illusion of
China being inexpensive would vanish. I say illusion because it is
subsidized with destroying the value of savings of everyday americans
and chinese. Lastly is the environmental issue. Being a communist
country people can't do anything to stop factories from spewing toxins
like people do in the USA. There is a cost to that as well. The shipping
costs (money and time) are also part of the equation that can be
overlooked.
Even without considering all of that the savings over a complex and
expensive product is minimal per unit. It is a lot over the production
run but the cost savings is minimal per unit.

a buddy of mine works for a certain large electronics manufacturing
contractor, and he says they've been bringing a lot of stuff back here
or even to germany. imagine that, germany, a country with massive labor
costs, unions up the wazoo,

to expand on this, in the context of political motivation for paying for
american jobs to be sent to china, american de-industrialization has
been a long term [and brilliantly executed] strategy to de-unionize the
united states work force, and thus, the political balance of this
country [- the chinese were just there to pick up the ball and run with
it]. non-union workers are more likely to be persuadable to vote for
non union-espoused causes. thus, if you change the nature of the
proles' employment, you change their voting proclivities. particularly
so if you sucker them into "home ownership", "education" and thus
massive long term debt with its attendant caution about anything that
could hazard repayment ability, like striking.

trouble is, with that de-industrialization has come military and fiscal
hazard never before seen - far beyond a simple political voter change
agenda.

one day, it'll be written up like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal

with china's military expansion and america's military weakness suddenly
being seen as "obvious and avoidable" with the benefit of hindsight.

Post by jim beam
massive energy and facilities costs, etc.,
being chosen because overall, it's cheaper than china. why? because,
exactly as you say, a lot of the savings are illusory. and reject rates
in some industries can cost you your reputation, and thus any future
business.
again, the business case for manufacturing in china is weak. [the human
rights case of course just doesn't factor in at all. and the military
costs??? well, that's a whole different story.] if it wasn't for the
fact that china owns wall st and attempts to own our politicians, and
that the pussies just roll over and take it, they'd be out of luck.

[dr_jeff]

Post by Brent

Post by Scott Dorsey
People want the cheapest possible products. An offshore outfit that
can make the cheapest possible products is going to have a market.

China isn't as cheap as it first appears. First manufacturing wise it
requires a lot of baby sitting,

Baby sitting? That's what grandparents are for.

Post by Brent
travel, scrapped parts, etc and so
forth. Next are larger economic issues such as China's currency being
pegged to the dollar and the China's government purchase of US federal
government debt. If either of these stopped much of the illusion of
China being inexpensive would vanish. I say illusion because it is
subsidized with destroying the value of savings of everyday americans
and chinese. Lastly is the environmental issue. Being a communist
country people can't do anything to stop factories from spewing toxins
like people do in the USA. There is a cost to that as well. The shipping
costs (money and time) are also part of the equation that can be
overlooked.
Even without considering all of that the savings over a complex and
expensive product is minimal per unit. It is a lot over the production
run but the cost savings is minimal per unit.

You should also add the environmental cost of producing the products in
areas with weaker laws as well as the cost of shipping the product.

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Brent

People want the cheapest possible products. An offshore outfit that
can make the cheapest possible products is going to have a market.

China isn't as cheap as it first appears. First manufacturing wise it
requires a lot of baby sitting,

Baby sitting? That's what grandparents are for.

Post by Brent
travel, scrapped parts, etc and so
forth. Next are larger economic issues such as China's currency being
pegged to the dollar and the China's government purchase of US federal
government debt. If either of these stopped much of the illusion of
China being inexpensive would vanish. I say illusion because it is
subsidized with destroying the value of savings of everyday americans
and chinese. Lastly is the environmental issue. Being a communist
country people can't do anything to stop factories from spewing toxins
like people do in the USA. There is a cost to that as well. The shipping
costs (money and time) are also part of the equation that can be
overlooked.
Even without considering all of that the savings over a complex and
expensive product is minimal per unit. It is a lot over the production
run but the cost savings is minimal per unit.

You should also add the environmental cost of producing the products in
areas with weaker laws as well as the cost of shipping the product.

yet another reason not to buy cheap chinese crap. not only are the
chinese being poisoned, americans are too. california's water supplies
have seen a significant increase in mercury solutes in recent years -
it's airborne chinese coal pollution crossing the pacific and
precipitating as rain in the sierra's.

[Brent]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Brent

Post by Scott Dorsey
People want the cheapest possible products. An offshore outfit that
can make the cheapest possible products is going to have a market.

China isn't as cheap as it first appears. First manufacturing wise it
requires a lot of baby sitting,

Baby sitting? That's what grandparents are for.

That's what you need to do if you want good product out of China. I had
co-workers I wouldn't see for months because they were stuck in china
babysitting.

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Brent
travel, scrapped parts, etc and so
forth. Next are larger economic issues such as China's currency being
pegged to the dollar and the China's government purchase of US federal
government debt. If either of these stopped much of the illusion of
China being inexpensive would vanish. I say illusion because it is
subsidized with destroying the value of savings of everyday americans
and chinese. Lastly is the environmental issue. Being a communist
country people can't do anything to stop factories from spewing toxins
like people do in the USA. There is a cost to that as well. The shipping
costs (money and time) are also part of the equation that can be
overlooked.
Even without considering all of that the savings over a complex and
expensive product is minimal per unit. It is a lot over the production
run but the cost savings is minimal per unit.

You should also add the environmental cost of producing the products in
areas with weaker laws as well as the cost of shipping the product.

I did. It's not so much laws, it's the ability of the people to complain
loudly about it and keep the government fearful of them.

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in
jobs being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the
world. We should be happy that US companies are building factories there
so they can sell cars there.
Jeff

nope, you're wrong. g.m. has windshields, seats, wiring harnesses,
engine computers, brakes, driveshafts, transmission parts, [etc]
manufactured in china and shipped here for assembly. g.m. have thereby
exported american jobs, and we the taxpayers are paying for them to do
so. it's a criminal disgrace.

[dr_jeff]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a
manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in
jobs being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the
world. We should be happy that US companies are building factories there
so they can sell cars there.
Jeff

nope, you're wrong. g.m. has windshields, seats, wiring harnesses,
engine computers, brakes, driveshafts, transmission parts, [etc]
manufactured in china and shipped here for assembly. g.m. have thereby
exported american jobs, and we the taxpayers are paying for them to do
so. it's a criminal disgrace.

That's different from building factories in China for sales to China.

And that different from building the parts themselves in China and
shipping them to the US.

THis is now a global economy. We will be getting parts and stuff from
China. Like iOS devices, my MacBookPro, most other things Apple makes
and most other computers are made in China.

Jeff

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in
jobs being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the
world. We should be happy that US companies are building factories there
so they can sell cars there.
Jeff

nope, you're wrong. g.m. has windshields, seats, wiring harnesses,
engine computers, brakes, driveshafts, transmission parts, [etc]
manufactured in china and shipped here for assembly. g.m. have thereby
exported american jobs, and we the taxpayers are paying for them to do
so. it's a criminal disgrace.

That's different from building factories in China for sales to China.

but that's not what's happening big guy. they're building factories in
china to make parts for the u.s. read the financial press or some of
g.m's financial filings once in a while will ya?

Post by dr_jeff
And that different from building the parts themselves in China and
shipping them to the US.

see above.

Post by dr_jeff
THis is now a global economy. We will be getting parts and stuff from
China. Like iOS devices, my MacBookPro, most other things Apple makes
and most other computers are made in China.

i have no problem buying cheap chinese crap being sold as cheap chinese
crap. but when it's being sold as "domestic", at full domestic
manufacturing price, AND i'm having to pay for it with my tax subsidy,
then i have a problem with it!!! and if you weren't a bitch so content
with unquestioningly taking it up the ass, you would have a problem with
it too. jeeze, your attitude makes me puke.

Post by dr_jeff
Jeff

[dr_jeff]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in
jobs being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the
world. We should be happy that US companies are building factories there
so they can sell cars there.
Jeff

nope, you're wrong. g.m. has windshields, seats, wiring harnesses,
engine computers, brakes, driveshafts, transmission parts, [etc]
manufactured in china and shipped here for assembly. g.m. have thereby
exported american jobs, and we the taxpayers are paying for them to do
so. it's a criminal disgrace.

That's different from building factories in China for sales to China.

but that's not what's happening big guy. they're building factories in
china to make parts for the u.s. read the financial press or some of
g.m's financial filings once in a while will ya?

I checked their latest 10-Q SEC filing. The word "China" is not even in it.

Post by dr_jeff
And that different from building the parts themselves in China and
shipping them to the US.

see above.

Post by dr_jeff
THis is now a global economy. We will be getting parts and stuff from
China. Like iOS devices, my MacBookPro, most other things Apple makes
and most other computers are made in China.

i have no problem buying cheap chinese crap being sold as cheap chinese
crap. but when it's being sold as "domestic", at full domestic
manufacturing price, AND i'm having to pay for it with my tax subsidy,
then i have a problem with it!!! and if you weren't a bitch so content
with unquestioningly taking it up the ass, you would have a problem with
it too. jeeze, your attitude makes me puke.

You're entitled to your opinion too.

People who think that their cars built in Michigan don't have foreign
parts are ignorant.

Sorry, but it is a global economy.

Jeff

Post by dr_jeff
Jeff

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by dr_jeff

Post by dr_jeff

Post by jim beam
question: why are you regurgitating proven bullshit about a manufacturer
who continues to source their components and labor here in the u.s.,
while taxpayer-funded g.m. is continuing to reduce jobs and component
sourcing here in the u.s. and increase both from their facilities in
china? or to put it another way, why the FUCK should american taxpayers
PAY to have their own jobs shipped overseas?

The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China. They are not going to result in
jobs being shipped overseas. China is the largest car market in the
world. We should be happy that US companies are building factories there
so they can sell cars there.
Jeff

nope, you're wrong. g.m. has windshields, seats, wiring harnesses,
engine computers, brakes, driveshafts, transmission parts, [etc]
manufactured in china and shipped here for assembly. g.m. have thereby
exported american jobs, and we the taxpayers are paying for them to do
so. it's a criminal disgrace.

That's different from building factories in China for sales to China.

but that's not what's happening big guy. they're building factories in
china to make parts for the u.s. read the financial press or some of
g.m's financial filings once in a while will ya?

I checked their latest 10-Q SEC filing. The word "China" is not even in it.

Post by dr_jeff
And that different from building the parts themselves in China and
shipping them to the US.

see above.

Post by dr_jeff
THis is now a global economy. We will be getting parts and stuff from
China. Like iOS devices, my MacBookPro, most other things Apple makes
and most other computers are made in China.

i have no problem buying cheap chinese crap being sold as cheap chinese
crap. but when it's being sold as "domestic", at full domestic
manufacturing price, AND i'm having to pay for it with my tax subsidy,
then i have a problem with it!!! and if you weren't a bitch so content
with unquestioningly taking it up the ass, you would have a problem with
it too. jeeze, your attitude makes me puke.

You're entitled to your opinion too.
People who think that their cars built in Michigan don't have foreign
parts are ignorant.
Sorry, but it is a global economy.
Jeff

Post by dr_jeff
Jeff

so stick you head in the sand - the fact that it undermines our
financial and military capacities bothers you not one little bit.

[Brent]

Post by dr_jeff
The factories that GM, Ford and other car makers are building are for
cars that are going to be sold in China.

Sorry, not 100% true. Parts and major sub assemblies are imported from
china for use in US assembled cars.

[Kevin John Yanaire, ESQ]

if only you could afford to purchase a TOYOTA! LOL! Keep saving your coins
to take the bus! LOL!

[Taylor]

Detroit and German made vehicles continue to catch randomly on fire,
while Toyota/Lexus gets consistently high reliability marks due to the
refusal to hire fucktards like john.

http://autos.aol.com/article/consumer-reports-ranks-reliable-cars/

[dr_jeff]

Post by Taylor
Detroit and German made vehicles continue to catch randomly on fire,
while Toyota/Lexus gets consistently high reliability marks due to the
refusal to hire fucktards like john.
http://autos.aol.com/article/consumer-reports-ranks-reliable-cars/

Of course, no Toyota has ever caught fire, even in a crash or when
someone puts a match into the gas tank.

Toyotas are subject to the same laws of physics as all the other cars.

[jim beam]

Post by dr_jeff

Post by Taylor
Detroit and German made vehicles continue to catch randomly on fire,
while Toyota/Lexus gets consistently high reliability marks due to the
refusal to hire fucktards like john.
http://autos.aol.com/article/consumer-reports-ranks-reliable-cars/

Of course, no Toyota has ever caught fire, even in a crash or when
someone puts a match into the gas tank.
Toyotas are subject to the same laws of physics as all the other cars.

oh puhleeeze. "laws of physics" is almost always an insult. especially
when it's just vague hand waving - as you're doing now.