Need advice

Post by j***@yahoo.com
I'm thinking of buying a 2002 IS 300 with 60K miles. It's "Pre
Certified" - so I get the warranty up to 2 years or 100K miles. The
dealer is offering me an extended premium warranty (transferable) of 5
years - 125K miles for $2,350. Is it worth it?

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Jerohm

2006-12-04 18:49:37 UTC

Post by Ray O
Your other option is to put the $2,350 into a savings account and use it
if any unforeseen repairs arise.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

I vote for option (B. Find a reputable independent shop. Change the timing
belt/water pump within 120% of the period recommended. Religiously get the
oil changed (3500-5000) and I think you will come out WAY AHEAD.

old man

2006-12-04 19:08:04 UTC

JFI;
Over the last 9 yrs I've owned three cars that averaged 50-60k /year, oil
was changed as per manu recommendation i.e. 16-25k depending on manu. None
of these vehicles (Diesel & Petrol) had any engine problems.
And yet I constantly see US posts recommending short intervals?

Post by Jerohm

Post by Ray O
Your other option is to put the $2,350 into a savings account and use it
if any unforeseen repairs arise.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Jerohm

2006-12-05 18:27:09 UTC

Post by old man
JFI;
Over the last 9 yrs I've owned three cars that averaged 50-60k /year, oil
was changed as per manu recommendation i.e. 16-25k depending on manu. None
of these vehicles (Diesel & Petrol) had any engine problems.
And yet I constantly see US posts recommending short intervals?

Changing the oil is incredibly CHEAP insurance. While I agree 3500 may be
overdoing it, my 1990 LS400 can be down a 1/2 quart or so after 5000 miles.
It is kind of like just 'telling' everyone never to put metal in the
microwave... it is just easier than expecting them to monitor all conditions
that can specifically lead to problems.

m***@dontspam.me

2006-12-05 03:33:12 UTC

Post by Jerohm

Post by Ray O
Your other option is to put the $2,350 into a savings account and use it
if any unforeseen repairs arise.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

..maybe..and that's a *big* maybe. My 02 LS430 had *both* power side
mirrors fail on me (they think it may have been a defective run).
Anyway, just out side of the standard warranty and into my extended
warranty (which I paid $1,500 btw), the mirrors failed. They were
replaced free of charge. Had I NOT had the extended warranty, it
would of cost me $1,800.

Yeah, $1,800.

Also, both lift assists in my trunk lid wore out. They too were
covered by my extended warranty. Cost without warranty would of been
$400 plus installation charge (and no, nobody sells aftermarket lifts
for the LS430 that I could find).

And, the *entire* cost of the warranty was refundable if I had not
used it but I've already recovered the cost of the initial investment
with the two items above.

So, it's up to you. Just keep in mind that when something goes bad,
the price to replace it can be a very expensive out of pocket expense.

x***@gmail.com

2006-12-05 17:04:09 UTC

This assumes that the warranties backed by the automakers are really
superior to the third party warranties. In Lexus's case, the Certified
Pre Owned warranties are really third party warranties, a fact they
hide from you until you try to use it. See my posts in the thread
titled "toyota vs. nissan". You may get some extra assurance that the
warranty is "backed" by Lexus or the car has passed a "rigorous" Lexus
inspection (whatever that means) but don't be fooled into thinking
you're getting a warranty that's the same quality as the Lexus factory
warranty because you're not, and adjust your expectations and
willingness to pay accordingly.

Lexus's are very reliable cars and in general probably don't need
extended warranties but as others have noted if things do go wrong it
can get expensive, especially with fancy power doo-dads. I bought
Certified Pre-Owned but if I had it to do over I'd probably buy a
non-CPO Lexus for thousands less and have it thoroughly inspected by a
Toyota or Lexus mechanic before purchase, and go without a warranty.
The suggestion made by another poster to put the cost of the warranty
in a bank account against future problems could make it more
comfortable to do that.

Even if I was worried about that and decided to purchase a high-end
third-party warranty, assuming I could do the research and find one
that is respectable and won't go out of business (and you can probably
find that if you're willing to pay a premimum price for it), it would
probably have been less expensive to do that than to buy Lexus CPO.

Ray O

2006-12-05 20:50:40 UTC

According to the Lexus web site, the Lexus Certified Pre-Owned Warranty is
warranted by Toyota Financial Services, Inc. Yes, TFS is a third party, but
that third party is a wholly owned subsidiary of TMS. Perhaps your car was
not a Lexus CPO car?

Post by x***@gmail.com
Lexus's are very reliable cars and in general probably don't need
extended warranties but as others have noted if things do go wrong it
can get expensive, especially with fancy power doo-dads. I bought
Certified Pre-Owned but if I had it to do over I'd probably buy a
non-CPO Lexus for thousands less and have it thoroughly inspected by a
Toyota or Lexus mechanic before purchase, and go without a warranty.
The suggestion made by another poster to put the cost of the warranty
in a bank account against future problems could make it more
comfortable to do that.
Even if I was worried about that and decided to purchase a high-end
third-party warranty, assuming I could do the research and find one
that is respectable and won't go out of business (and you can probably
find that if you're willing to pay a premimum price for it), it would
probably have been less expensive to do that than to buy Lexus CPO.

During my time as a district service manager, I did not deal with any third
party extended service contract companies that I would recommend to anyone,
other than the one backed by the automakers.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

x***@gmail.com

2006-12-06 15:53:05 UTC

I'm not sure if that's who they were using in 2001 when I bought mine.
And while it's wholly owned it's still a different entity set up to
isolate Toyota/Lexus from responsibility for those warranties. They
could spin it off at any time. It may be better than any other
extended warranty company out there, but it's still a non-Lexus
warranty.

Post by Ray O
Perhaps your car was
not a Lexus CPO car?

It definitely was (is? I still own it but the warranty is long expired
as I'm closing in on 140K miles)

Ray O

2006-12-06 17:13:54 UTC

Lexus has been using TFS since the inception of the Certified Pre-Owned
program. "Extended warranties" are actually insurance policies, and the
companies issuing those policies have to comply with various laws regulating
insurance companies. TFS is a separate entity not so much to isolate
Toyota/Lexus from responsibility for those policies, but so that a car
company does not have to comply with the insurance regulations, which
probably prohibit a non-insurance company from issuing insurance policies
any way.

From my 15 years experience working for the company, I do not forsee Toyota
spinning off TFS. Toyota's mode of operation is to either acquire companies
that they pay a lot of money to for support or product, or form their own so
that they can control costs, quality of service, or retain profits.

As to whether it is worth paying extra for a CPO vehicle from a dealer, it
is a catch-22. A CPO vehicle will be less than 5 years old, have less than
60,000 miles, have a verifiable CarFax report, undergo a 161 point
inspection with repairs as necessary, get detailed, and have the extended
"warranty" and the owner is eligible for the stuff that new vehicle buyers
get like concierge service, car washes, trip interruption insurance, etc.
For whatever premium that the customer has to pay for a CPO vehicle, you
could probably pay someone to do the inspection, get the CarFax report, and
purchase the extended service contract from the dealership and have money
left over to pay for your own car washes, rental cars, trip interruption
service, etc. Here are the catches - if a third party inspects the car for
you and they miss someting major, they are not going to pay to fix it for
you, and my guess is that most, if not all, of the choice vehicles on a
dealer's lot will be CPO and the leftovers will be just a used car. If all
you want is a used car, then CPO isn't worth it, but if you want a cherry
car, then CPO may be your only choice unless you find a private party with
one.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

x***@gmail.com

2006-12-07 18:26:48 UTC

Post by Ray O
of the choice vehicles on a
dealer's lot will be CPO and the leftovers will be just a used car. If all
you want is a used car, then CPO isn't worth it, but if you want a cherry
car, then CPO may be your only choice unless you find a private party with
one.

That's a very good point. It was 2001 when I bought mine so I forgot
that I did look at non CPO LS400's, both at the Lexus dealers and
elsewhere, and they were all pretty much skanks.

m***@dontspam.me

2006-12-07 03:00:23 UTC

Post by x***@gmail.com
I'm not sure if that's who they were using in 2001 when I bought mine.
And while it's wholly owned it's still a different entity set up to
isolate Toyota/Lexus from responsibility for those warranties. They
could spin it off at any time. It may be better than any other
extended warranty company out there, but it's still a non-Lexus
warranty.

Post by Ray O
Perhaps your car was
not a Lexus CPO car?

It definitely was (is? I still own it but the warranty is long expired
as I'm closing in on 140K miles)

Well, we have two Lexi with extended warranties and they both are
from Lexus with zero deductable and I've never had any problem with
having an item repaired.

Additionally, I called the extended warranty department concerning the
rear lifts on my car to ensure it was covered under the warranty (it
was)..and the greeting I received was a Lexus recording before a
customer service rep answered the phone.

oklaman

2006-12-07 02:21:58 UTC

--
your reasoning is correct. however, how many would actually put the $2350
aside for repairs?

it's kind of like 'buy term insurance and invest the difference (from whole
life)'. very few would invest the difference.

Ray O

2006-12-07 04:45:24 UTC

In general, I am not a fan of extended "warranties" which are actually
insurance contracts, but if you opt to get one, I recommend only getting one
backed by the automaker because third party contracts usually are so full of
loopholes that they hardly cover anything, or they end up going out of
business. The price of service contracts is negotiable.
Your other option is to put the $2,350 into a savings account and use it if
any unforeseen repairs arise.
--
your reasoning is correct. however, how many would actually put the $2350
aside for repairs?
it's kind of like 'buy term insurance and invest the difference (from whole
life)'. very few would invest the difference.

Very true!

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

x***@gmail.com

2006-12-07 18:24:06 UTC

Yup. That's one advantage of CPO with the extended warranty rolled into
the price of the car -- you can finance it. I doubt very many car
buyers have an extra 2350 cash laying around to stash for possible
repairs, and if they did they probably wouldn't worry about the cost of
downsream repairs (or the extra cost of getting a CPO car)

Dana

2006-12-09 21:09:20 UTC

Good Grief.........................You're buying a Lexus , and yet you don't
have an extra 2 or 3 thousand in the bank for whatever problems may arise .
Perhaps you should drive a less expensive vehicle untill you have more of a
surplus of funds put away.

-Dana

mcbrue

2006-12-09 22:38:04 UTC

Yes Dana, that is right! They are buying a Lexus so they have an
unlimited supply of money to fix things that break, should any things
like that ever happen. It only takes one or maybe two of those cute
little electronic thingies breaking to pay for the warranty - but then
you have an unlimited supply of money and don't care about that. Please
give some realistic advice based on your experience - like you have
owned Lexus cars for 12 years and had only $500 repair items. My
experience with Lexus indicates the extended warranty has a better than
even chance of paying for itself on the Es series based on the $5200
repairs I have had on two of them. So you bet I will get one for the
bag of bumpy bones they call an LS if I am going to keep it for one
mile beyond 50,000.

toyomoho

2006-12-10 08:07:43 UTC

Taking or not taking insurance is a gamble. If you don’t have
insurance you are gambling you will pay out less then the insurance
coverage cost over the span of the policy.

Suggest checking exactly what the warranty covers and does not cover
(if the contract is readable). Each Toyota model seems to have items
that go bad but with routine maintanence what are the odds of them
occurring within 120K miles. What does the warranty say about normal
wear and tear issues?

Normal maintanence (at your expense) will most likely still be
required. If you are planning on keeping the car after 120K miles,
preventative maintenance is even more important. Thus, during the
warranty period you will still be spending your money on maintenance on
top of the extended warranty cost.

Dealers sell these warranties because they make a lot of profit.
Contract prices are flexible and you can negotiate a lower price. What
part of the total price the dealer gets, don’t know. In other
service type contracts such as electronics, it is not uncommon for the
contract seller to get 50% of the price up front.

How miles per year do you drive? If read correctly, when broken down
the dealer is offering you a 3-year/25K warranty. You would have
already gotten the 2-year/100K warranty for free. Is this correct?

If the car has 60K miles now, this means averaging 20K per year to max
out the free warranty before it time expires. Do you drive this much?
If so, after these two years, your next 3 years driving will be limited
to about 8K per year to stay within the warranty.

If you get the extended warranty, you can drive 13K miles per year
without maxing out the mileage clause before the time expires.

Does your state or the federal government already mandate longer
warranties on certain emissions items?

At $2350, this is $470 per year for 5years. But if this warranty just
extends the free 2-year 100K warranty by 3 years, this is $783 per
year.

--
toyomoho
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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stu

2006-12-10 20:41:38 UTC

Anyone have any ideas on how much we pay in advance for the warranty on a
new car?

Post by toyomoho
Taking or not taking insurance is a gamble. If you don’t have
insurance you are gambling you will pay out less then the insurance
coverage cost over the span of the policy.
Suggest checking exactly what the warranty covers and does not cover
(if the contract is readable). Each Toyota model seems to have items
that go bad but with routine maintanence what are the odds of them
occurring within 120K miles. What does the warranty say about normal
wear and tear issues?
Normal maintanence (at your expense) will most likely still be
required. If you are planning on keeping the car after 120K miles,
preventative maintenance is even more important. Thus, during the
warranty period you will still be spending your money on maintenance on
top of the extended warranty cost.
Dealers sell these warranties because they make a lot of profit.
Contract prices are flexible and you can negotiate a lower price. What
part of the total price the dealer gets, don’t know. In other
service type contracts such as electronics, it is not uncommon for the
contract seller to get 50% of the price up front.
How miles per year do you drive? If read correctly, when broken down
the dealer is offering you a 3-year/25K warranty. You would have
already gotten the 2-year/100K warranty for free. Is this correct?
If the car has 60K miles now, this means averaging 20K per year to max
out the free warranty before it time expires. Do you drive this much?
If so, after these two years, your next 3 years driving will be limited
to about 8K per year to stay within the warranty.
If you get the extended warranty, you can drive 13K miles per year
without maxing out the mileage clause before the time expires.
Does your state or the federal government already mandate longer
warranties on certain emissions items?
At $2350, this is $470 per year for 5years. But if this warranty just
extends the free 2-year 100K warranty by 3 years, this is $783 per
year.
--
toyomoho
------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/member.php?userid=59151
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168644

kitzler

2006-12-14 11:35:14 UTC

Post by stu
Anyone have any ideas on how much we pay in advance for the warranty on a
new car?

Regarding insurance, statistically insurance carriers pay out about 50%
of the premiums they take in, otherwise they lose money..... so already
if you are collecting 50% of what the policy is costing you, you are
technically speaking breaking even. Then when time comes to collect,
you are at the mercy of the carrier's decisions and whims.

I much prefer buying the mandatory insurance, and paying for the repair
work out of pocket. In this case you are the boss, you determine if
you are satisfied, etc. Let insurance take care of catastrophic
incidents. As so many suggest, assume you will pay an extra $100 or so
a month in premiums, and put that money in a savings account instead.
I think you'll come out ahead, statistically speaking.

Also, has anyone ever replaced Lexus run-flat tires with regular radial
tires. Run-flats are nice though noisy, but if I ever get a flat, I
need to replace the tire. Replacing a tire that is almost 75% worn
means I have to replace four tires, should I ever have a flat, that's a
very expensive proposition. So I would like to opt out of run-flat
tires, any ideas out there????

/Nick

m***@dontspam.me

2006-12-16 00:54:10 UTC

Post by kitzler

Post by stu
Anyone have any ideas on how much we pay in advance for the warranty on a
new car?

Regarding insurance, statistically insurance carriers pay out about 50%
of the premiums they take in, otherwise they lose money..... so already
if you are collecting 50% of what the policy is costing you, you are
technically speaking breaking even. Then when time comes to collect,
you are at the mercy of the carrier's decisions and whims.
I much prefer buying the mandatory insurance, and paying for the repair
work out of pocket. In this case you are the boss, you determine if
you are satisfied, etc. Let insurance take care of catastrophic
incidents. As so many suggest, assume you will pay an extra $100 or so
a month in premiums, and put that money in a savings account instead.
I think you'll come out ahead, statistically speaking.
Also, has anyone ever replaced Lexus run-flat tires with regular radial
tires. Run-flats are nice though noisy, but if I ever get a flat, I
need to replace the tire. Replacing a tire that is almost 75% worn
means I have to replace four tires, should I ever have a flat, that's a
very expensive proposition. So I would like to opt out of run-flat
tires, any ideas out there????
/Nick

typically, suspension systems are different that are set up for run
flat tires. If you change to non flat tires without changing the
suspension you may have handling problems and an unsatisfactory
ride.

I've been told conversion of the suspension systems involves a lot
more than just changing the stuts and is quite expensive (read
thousands of $).

YMMV of course.

kitzler

2006-12-16 20:15:28 UTC

Post by m***@dontspam.me
typically, suspension systems are different that are set up for run
flat tires. If you change to non flat tires without changing the
suspension you may have handling problems and an unsatisfactory
ride.
I've been told conversion of the suspension systems involves a lot
more than just changing the stuts and is quite expensive (read
thousands of $).
YMMV of course.

I never thought of that, thanks YMMV, and I will definitely try to
pursue that line of argument. I also I heard that Lexus increased the
horsepower of the GS300 for 2007 by replacing the 3 Litre engine with
a 3.5 L. .This is welcome news as my 2006 sometimes does not shift
down during slow hill climbs and that causes the engine to labor and
the car to lose speed. A bigger engine would trump that problem.
HOWEVER, I have a sneaky feeling that for 2007, Lexus dropped the All
Wheel Drive option on the GS350. Anyone hear anything like that?

m***@dontspam.me

2006-12-16 21:19:26 UTC

Post by kitzler

I don't recall on the GS's but doesn't the GS300 have the ability to
either manually downshift and/or disable the overdrive function? On
most cars, the overdrive can be disabled by a button on the shifter
knob. That would probably help you a lot on the hill climbs. We have
a 00 ES300 and even on steep hills, if we manually take it out of
overdrive, we have no problem with hills. Of course, my LS430 doesn't
care much about hills. :-)

The GS350 is the next generation GS (hint, the number denotes the
liter size of the engine 300 = 3.00 litre, 350= 3.5 litre.
Subsequently, the 430's are 4.3 litres).

One thing to look at instead of run flat tires is something that
Michelin has developed and is now selling that technology to other
manufacturers. It's call PAX.

here's an article that explains what PAX tires are:

http://tinyurl.com/ygqzu9

I suspect however, conversion to PAX type tires may be expensive since
mostly likely the rims must have specially developed lips to hold the
tire firmly in place but I may be wrong.

Ray O

2006-12-16 22:20:06 UTC

Post by m***@dontspam.me

Post by kitzler

All Toyota/Lexus models have the ability to lock out overdrive.

Post by m***@dontspam.me
One thing to look at instead of run flat tires is something that
Michelin has developed and is now selling that technology to other
manufacturers. It's call PAX.
http://tinyurl.com/ygqzu9
I suspect however, conversion to PAX type tires may be expensive since
mostly likely the rims must have specially developed lips to hold the
tire firmly in place but I may be wrong.

According to the article, the PAX tires are for OEM only because of the need
for specially designed wheels (not just the rims) and for a tire pressure
monitoring system.

BTW, the rim is the "lip" of the wheel.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

m***@dontspam.me

2006-12-17 04:00:43 UTC

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:20:06 -0600, "Ray O"

Post by m***@dontspam.me
I suspect however, conversion to PAX type tires may be expensive since
mostly likely the rims must have specially developed lips to hold the
tire firmly in place but I may be wrong.

I was referring to the entire rim (or wheel if you wish). Not just
the "lip".

Ray O

2006-12-17 19:40:52 UTC

Post by m***@dontspam.me
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:20:06 -0600, "Ray O"

I was referring to the entire rim (or wheel if you wish). Not just
the "lip".

One my pet peeves is that "rim" is often incorrectly used as a synonym for
"wheel." ;-)

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

m***@dontspam.me

2006-12-17 19:44:51 UTC

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:40:52 -0600, "Ray O"

Post by m***@dontspam.me
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:20:06 -0600, "Ray O"

I was referring to the entire rim (or wheel if you wish). Not just
the "lip".

One my pet peeves is that "rim" is often incorrectly used as a synonym for
"wheel." ;-)

LOL you say potato, I say tomato ;-)

Ray O

2006-12-17 20:42:47 UTC

Post by m***@dontspam.me
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:40:52 -0600, "Ray O"

Post by m***@dontspam.me
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:20:06 -0600, "Ray O"

I was referring to the entire rim (or wheel if you wish). Not just
the "lip".

One my pet peeves is that "rim" is often incorrectly used as a synonym for
"wheel." ;-)

LOL you say potato, I say tomato ;-)

The engineers I used to work with took no prisoners and were sticklers for
using correct terminology when referring to parts of the car. I guess some
of that rubbed off on me.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

mikestp

2006-12-17 22:01:01 UTC

Post by m***@dontspam.me
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:40:52 -0600, "Ray O"

Post by m***@dontspam.me
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:20:06 -0600, "Ray O"

I was referring to the entire rim (or wheel if you wish). Not just
the "lip".

One my pet peeves is that "rim" is often incorrectly used as a synonym for
"wheel." ;-)

LOL you say potato, I say tomato ;-)

The engineers I used to work with took no prisoners and were sticklers for
using correct terminology when referring to parts of the car. I guess some
of that rubbed off on me.

I have a major peeve.. The automotive world always noted the pressure in
the intake manifold as "Vacuum". I go ballistic when I hear an
automotive teacher refer to manifold pressure as a vacuum. The proper
term is manifold pressure. That way it is always correct if it is above
or below atmospheric pressure.

Ray O

2006-12-17 22:45:03 UTC

Post by mikestp

Post by m***@dontspam.me
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:40:52 -0600, "Ray O"

Post by m***@dontspam.me
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:20:06 -0600, "Ray O"

According to the article, the PAX tires are for OEM only because of
the
need
for specially designed wheels (not just the rims) and for a tire pressure
monitoring system.
BTW, the rim is the "lip" of the wheel.

I was referring to the entire rim (or wheel if you wish). Not just
the "lip".

One my pet peeves is that "rim" is often incorrectly used as a synonym for
"wheel." ;-)

LOL you say potato, I say tomato ;-)

The engineers I used to work with took no prisoners and were sticklers
for using correct terminology when referring to parts of the car. I
guess some of that rubbed off on me.

I have a major peeve.. The automotive world always noted the pressure in
the intake manifold as "Vacuum". I go ballistic when I hear an automotive
teacher refer to manifold pressure as a vacuum. The proper term is
manifold pressure. That way it is always correct if it is above or below
atmospheric pressure.

Good point!

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

kitzler

2006-12-18 15:34:32 UTC